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AerionIstari
Vanguard
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Columbia, SC USA
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 Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| RobHuntingdon wrote: |
| AerionIstari wrote: |
Robert, that's the best explanation I've ever read as to why RTS sucks (at least from my perspective).
It's been so long since I played Lords of the Realm, I can hardly remember the game. But I did spend many hours playing it. But if I recall, it had an RTS system that plays very similar to the way the Total War series plays now.
How do you play those old games? I can't get them to run on XP. Tried Colonization a while ago and it crashes. |
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I never did get a chance to play colonization. I heard it was a good game but never got a chance to try it.
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RH |
Too bad. It was a relatively simple game but lots of fun to play, IMHO. It's probably the oldest game I still play on occasion. My guess is that the problems running stem from the old Soundblaster sound drivers. |
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AerionIstari
Vanguard
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Columbia, SC USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Therlun wrote: |
| For old Dos games (like LotR 1 and Colonization) try Dosbox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1). |
Thanks for the tip, Therlun. I'll give it a try. |
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Antaran
Voyager
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I know I've missed this discussion with about 6 months  but I might aswell give this post a bump since it seems to be kinda quiet on this forum anyway..  I for one love spending time designing the looks and loadouts of my ships, I really enjoyed the GC2 customization except for the rather limited basic styels you could choose from. I agree that the seizes should be limited in a "classical" manner similar to the following: small / medium / large / huge with larger hulls requiring research to unlock. BUT, it would be a nice touch if players could choose to specialize in a given hull seize, allowing for component miniturization and special systems to be installed providing uniqe bonuses to specific ships, such as better manouverability for small / medium ships. I find that tactical combat in most games use the following pattern: 1. ships from all sides move thowards each other 2. at point blank range, the ships stop dead in space 3. the ships unload their weapons at each other until one side is destroyed. who wins is always determined by whos got the biggest ships with the most guns. It would feel more realistic that the captain of a smaller but faster ship would use its advantages to manouver his ship into the dead-angles of a larger more cumbersome enemy, given that the smaller ship isnt broad-sided and destroyed by the larger ship on the initial approach (pirates! anyone?)  still this is rarely seen in AI controlled combat, and a pain to do manually since trying to move your ships around only causes the AI ships to go into "turret-mode" sitting and turning in a place. |
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RobHuntingdon
Vanguard
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 147
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Antaran wrote: |
| I find that tactical combat in most games use the following pattern: 1. ships from all sides move thowards each other 2. at point blank range, the ships stop dead in space 3. the ships unload their weapons at each other until one side is destroyed. who wins is always determined by whos got the biggest ships with the most guns. It would feel more realistic that the captain of a smaller but faster ship would use its advantages to manouver his ship into the dead-angles of a larger more cumbersome enemy... |
Well at least from what I hear, it seems like Horizon is planning to try to do something along these lines.
But I'm not sure that "biggest ships with most guns" is entirely accurate. I've played many games in MOO2 (for example) in which my fewer ships were better armed and kicked butt, and sometimes I even had smaller ships too. If you can hit them and they can't hit you it makes a big difference. I would often use 360-degree weapons in my MOO2 designs because I didn't want to give them a back side to hit me from, but when I could I'd get behind them and watch them spin in circles while I chipped away at them. It didn't always work but it's especially effective if you have the ship teleporter thingy (forget what it's called)
On the other hand, that's still a poor imitation of reality. It can still be fun, but it's not nearly as good a reflection of reality as a real-time combat engine could make it... but again that's hard to write properly. Plus we know that Horizon won't have one, which makes it kinda moot for now.
RH
_________________
Robert, the Earl of Huntingdon
Tarry here, my merry men, whilst I seek what adventure await in yonder greenwood; but look thou listen for my call, for I will blow my horn if I become hard-pressed.
Adapted from Sterling, pg. 45 |
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Zaimat
Dev. Team
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 356
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Antaran wrote: |
| BUT, it would be a nice touch if players could choose to specialize in a given hull seize, allowing for component miniturization and special systems to be installed providing uniqe bonuses to specific ships, such as better manouverability for small / medium ships. |
Your research strategy in a game will definately affect your options. Certain choices make it better for an empire running smaller ships vs. another larger. It's not all or nothing though, well there is some of that too but for the most part specialization can benefit one type more than other sizes.
| Antaran wrote: |
It would feel more realistic that the captain of a smaller but faster ship would use its advantages to manouver his ship into the dead-angles of a larger more cumbersome enemy, given that the smaller ship isnt broad-sided and destroyed by the larger ship on the initial approach (pirates! anyone?) still this is rarely seen in AI controlled combat, and a pain to do manually since trying to move your ships around only causes the AI ships to go into "turret-mode" sitting and turning in a place. |
I agree that it would be visually stunning and more realistic to see small ships maneuvering. I had some ideas along those lines back before real-time 3d engines were a common thing and it was a pipe dream but nowadays it's possible just recently. If you have played Heroes 5 that's pretty close to what I imagined doing with a turn based strategy game. It's too difficult to maneuver manually (it isn't after all a combat sim) but once you tell your ship to attack it can render a clip of the attack and simulate what you would expect it to do.
There are other ways to get the 'feeling' across though without the visuals. Smaller ships can turn faster, get initiative faster, can avoid attacks due to sheer maneuverability. So in effect you are using it's advantages and it does impact combat.
| Antaran wrote: |
I find that tactical combat in most games use the following pattern: 1. ships from all sides move thowards each other 2. at point blank range, the ships stop dead in space 3. the ships unload their weapons at each other until one side is destroyed. who wins is always determined by whos got the biggest ships with the most guns. |
There is a lot at balance. You don't want combat to be too far away, it makes tactical combat too cumbersome for the player. At the same time you don't want 'just' point blank range attacks either.
One of the things I noticed while playing with the combat AI: when the AI determined it couldn't win, we had it programmed to run away. While this was realistic, it could be frustrating for the player trying to chase.
There are many factors in the Horizon combat system which add to strategy so it's not just who has the most guns. And things like angles and maneuverability along with some other factors do play a large part in deciding the outcome of battles.
_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer |
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AerionIstari
Vanguard
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Columbia, SC USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaimat wrote: |
| Antaran wrote: |
I find that tactical combat in most games use the following pattern: 1. ships from all sides move thowards each other 2. at point blank range, the ships stop dead in space 3. the ships unload their weapons at each other until one side is destroyed. who wins is always determined by whos got the biggest ships with the most guns. |
There is a lot at balance. You don't want combat to be too far away, it makes tactical combat too cumbersome for the player. At the same time you don't want 'just' point blank range attacks either.
One of the things I noticed while playing with the combat AI: when the AI determined it couldn't win, we had it programmed to run away. While this was realistic, it could be frustrating for the player trying to chase.
There are many factors in the Horizon combat system which add to strategy so it's not just who has the most guns. And things like angles and maneuverability along with some other factors do play a large part in deciding the outcome of battles. |
It's wonderful to hear that angles and firing arcs are going to be a major part of this game. Starfleet battles was one of my favorite games a long time ago. I've yet to see a ship combat simulation that matched it for sheer strategy and tactics. They did release a computer version of the game, but they made it a RTS game and ruined the whole concept. |
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