The past week we were Invaded...

[Zaimat]

This week a lot of the time was spent on working (or re-working) on the invasion module, the actual coding and implementation. We had a preliminary working version for a long time but it was really a mock-up version while we worked on other "more important" parts of the game.

To give you an idea on our work process. We've actually been preparing the invasion units/assets for the past 4 months (few hours here and there while working on other parts) and trying out different ideas on mock-up screens and thinking how it would tie into gameplay and the UI.

Some of the things that we have done:
. transport ships are not tied to troops, you design your transports like every other ship, put weapons on them if you wish or not and everything else you may want to.
. Troops are trained and recruited from populated colonies
. Load, Unload troops from planet to ships or vice versa, transport ships are never 'used' up and don't dissapear.
. Make invasions, armies meaningful. Losing an army or deploying them can leave less on your own colonies. Armies are not part of the population, they like ships have to be maintained.

Some things we are trying to do:
. Alliance co-ordinated attacks/defense of invasions. It's almost assured one way or another this is going to be possible but we are looking at the different options. They have different limitations (gameplay or UI) so still being tested out.

Some of the things that we considered but didn't do:
. Showing the actual invasion (tactical mode), it turned out to be too much work after some mockup testing. And really if we were, it would have been pointless without adding some tactical control over units. And that in turn would slow the game flow. Do players really want to fight in space or on the ground? Either way if we couldn't do it reasonably well/fun it was not an option.

Have a good weekend.

Note: More interface screens are ready (just need to be put on website) but Therlun prefers I spend my time on updates so there you are today!


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Horizon - Lead Designer

[ForesterSOF]

This is great news.

Could you make a scheduled update to the game on at least a monthly basis.
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You have two choices in life; Explore and Learn, or Vegetate

[Therlun]

[Warcaster]

[RobHuntingdon]

Well I'd be happy even with a MOO2-type invasion screen. Or even MOO1-style. After all the eye-candy your pre-release imagery has displayed so far, it would seem a shame not to at least have some sort of animated silly stuff to tease the eye yet more.

RH
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Robert, the Earl of Huntingdon

Tarry here, my merry men, whilst I seek what adventure await in yonder greenwood; but look thou listen for my call, for I will blow my horn if I become hard-pressed.

Adapted from Sterling, pg. 45

[Anguille]

I don't really need to control the land battles...
Most important thing is that i don't want to move entire populations to do so....trained troops like in MOO2 and MOO3 is fine.
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I may not post so much...but i am here watching!

[Sim-Mania]

I agree, as long as you have some way of learning about how the battle is going, there's no need to control every aspect of ground battle.

But it would be good to have some battle sounds or graphic in the background.

Don't hesitate to update us when you have more information about how Alliance co-ordinated attacks will be managed.

[Breniir]

Controlling Land battles really isn't necessary, but I echo the previous posters, there has to be something to take a look at. Maybe someone answered this before, but will the planets be divided into sections a la MOO3? I refer only to how ground combat occured, not the planet management side of it. That game really didn't convey how many "territories" were captured, and the cheesy dialogue didn't help. A nice map of the planet and a quick explaination that two regions fell to our Space Marines would work. Maybe some data on losses, etc.

I did like having various strategies in MOO3, but not all of them were well explained or very useful. Maybe that could be a part of the invasion planning, selecting what to do, what level of collateral damage, etc. Once the fight is started though, the leader should let the generals do their thing.

On a side note: Call it a nit pick of other games of this genre, but having the leader of an interstellar empire run each and every ground campaign seems a bit too much micromanagement, not to mention a poor way to run a military. It would be like President Roosevelt giving orders over radio to General Eisenhower during the D-Day invasion. I could see an important battle being managed by the leader if they were present (the first joint invasion with an ally, conquering the enemy's final planet, The Emperor just wants to play soldier, etc), but not everything.

P.S. yeah yeah I know they're just games, but a bit of realism thrown in makes me happy.

[Zaimat]

Thanks for all the feedback, keep em coming...

My view and thoughts that have guided the invasion design:

It had to relay the feeling of invasion to the player and be believable. The forces well represented (attackers/defenders) and the player options clear and straightforward to the player.

Invasion is not a big part of the game but it is an important part. It seems to have always been one of the lesser developed parts of 4x games. And yet when you do that I feel it is often better to do less and leave it to the imagination of players.

MOO1 was simplistic yet it was to the point and believable! It captured the essence of an invasion because it was abstract enough.

MOO2 the orbital options were fine I think but the the actual fighting animation while very nice to look at never imparted the scope of a real global invasion (it felt more like a small skirmish in a desert).

MOO3 designers jumped on that (cool) and tried to make it epic but many screens and/or a poor presentation instead ruined the 'suspension of belief' for myself and probably many others.

At least that's my opinion and if I'm wrong on any of that I'm sure you will tell me

To answer some of your inquiries on how things are:

A fleet or fleets of ships surround a planet, invasion is selected. The player will see a list of command options available (whether attacking or defending). The rest of the screen will show the planet, infrastructures and troops + other units.

Attacker and Defender units are seperated and a breakdown of each is displayed graphically (and animated) along with how much of the planet is in control by either side. The attacker will choose from orbital options (bombard, mass drivers, bio weapons and more), the defender will also have a few options and you will see visually infrastructure and condition.

And finally there is the option to actually invade, to try to take control of the planet. The units fight, actual fighting is not shown but you will see the unit counts change as combat progresses and they die or are destroyed. Until military victory is achieved.

The planet territories are represented by the % controlled bar.
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Horizon - Lead Designer

[Jambi]

I'll chime in...

I agree with what others have said above. I want to know an invasions is taking place but I don't want to be too involved, this is a 4x space afterall . I do want meaningful interactions and reprensentaions. If I select tactical options while invading I want it to mean something, but again, I just don't want to get my hands too dirty.

Zaimat,
I like what you said about clear and straight forward options and controls.

KISASF: Keep It Simple And Straight Forward

[Chaos Blade]

Wel, new here so dunno how much my comments might weight (or how bad it is to resurect post in this board)

I agree that invasions should not be too complex nd be left in charge of the generals in the front (though setting strategies (say, want to capture as much of the infrastructure intact ), how much support warships are giving to the forces and so forth)
But I also agree that it is the least developed aspect of 4x games, and it is a very important one, probably more than space battles (well, planets are the backbone of your infrastructure)

one thing that I belive it is key is that they must not be instantaneous. they ought to take some game time (depending on the forces) this would enable the defender to try to send reinforcements (supplies?) or a relief force

[Zaimat]

Welcome, all comments are appreciated. Even though the invasion module is now 'finished' sometimes we make small changes or at the very least consider the possibility.

4x games are a lot of mini games in one package. And it's always a matter of what parts to focus on and invasion tends to be left pretty far down the pecking order.

The final design ended up being a little different than my previous comment in this thread. Sometimes it gets too complicated and you have to compromise. So to give a revision of sorts:

We implemented pretty much all the 'must haves' I mentioned but we decided to keep invasion solely for invading troops combat. By this I mean, once a planet is invaded it's all about "ground" troops (soldiers, tanks, hovercraft and other planetary fighting units) duking it out.

The bombardment/orbital phase will be done in tactical view before the actual invasion, totally seperate. My previous post and my initial design I wanted to allow both and show infrastructure on the invasion phase as well and furthermore give tactical options to the attacker and defender. This turned out too ambitious and too complex to implement.

The invasion module was complicated (in implementing not playability) with managing multiple armies (coalitions). But it was well worth the effort and added a new dimension without complicating playability or slowing down the flow. So I think we got the core of our design and I'm quite happy with that.

Once the interface is finalized I will put up the screenshot.
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Horizon - Lead Designer

[Lexx_Luthor]

Thanks.

If its too late now, maybe in future addon packs, we and/or AI can "retreat" or call off the invasion if the numerical feedback of battle results begins to look discouraging, and like posted above, add reinforcements to the surface battle. One idea -- retreat may not always work and you/AI run the risk of the retreat off the planet turning into a rout, where the retreating surface force loses far more than planned (it would have been better to let them sacrifice themselves but the player/AI took the risk to save them but it doesnt' work sometimes). Turning your back to the enemy is not always a wise thing, although sometimes you can escape, sometimes not.

For future additions -- something I toyed with long ago on a sort of board game -- representing planet surface as a pair of hex maps, representing the "north" and "south" hemispheres. The edges of the two hex maps are the equator. Could this almost circular 2D grid simplify AI vs AI ground battle programming.

[Vore]

another option would be if all space forces are destroyed they attacking fleet can blockade the planet into submission, ie no food, resources things of that nature. this would allow the player to gradually decreas the defensive rating of a planet without invading and capturing it by force, also you should be able to force an enemy empire to turn over owner ship of said blockaded planets, this option would allow the player/AI to comeback later to invade a planet that has an intact familar economy and infrastructure granting a bonus to the original owner for regaining control of a planet he/she gave up to save it from invasion.
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Fear only the Great Void of Space

[Therlun]

I would like planetary sieges.