Hello and some questions/ideas

[Ravana]

First off, hello to you all. Fantastic news on the space sim front, as the last effort in the genre (mentioning no names) was a major letdown. Nice to see someone does not share the view that the format is dead and best left forgotten. Anyway, on with the questions!



My general feeling with strategy games is that developers, and the whip-wielding publishers, try to balance too many things in to a game, and leave little in terms of actual gameplay. I suppose it's the conundrum of repetition/innovation coming out. Whilst many forbears in this category have adopted a trusted approach to design, I've often felt that the less graphically intensive options have been ignored or overlooked for the glitz and glamour. I suppose that the two games I play the most are IG2 and MoO2. Both are similar in many respects, but I love the spying and ground combat of the former over the latter. However, what both lacked was a really effective diplomacy/espionage structure.



So, what would I like to see?



1. I liked Sim-Mania's "coalition" comment, but what I would also like is to be able to negotiate or broker a peace deal between factions. It's annoying when two of your allies go to war and call on you to honour your agreement (-s) causing you to lose one or both of them.



2. Although MoO2 would claim that your acts of espionage were blamed on another empire, I would like to be able to choose which empire I frame. Simple little detail, but well worth the effort.



3. In terms of research, I've never understood why I have to research one particular type of tech or single item at a time. If I have the money and resources, why can't we allocate them to high-energy weapons, gravitic propulsion and advanced social theory all at the same time? It makes little sense to many of us I think.



4. Capturing technology from enemy ships and bases/planets. Hopefully, if there are race-sepcific weapons, we can utilise or approximate them through reverse-engineering. Perhaps we would obtain a research bonus or new directions to explore. It was annoying to trade for turbolaser technology as the Shinari in IG2 and find that I can't use it once I've got it anyway.



5. If there are to be active fleet battles (pretty, pretty please), it would be nice to see a control mechanism that actually controls, and not one that leaves you wondering why you're passively watching your ships blow up, or make choices which have little impact on the course of the battle.



6. Same as 5 but for ground battles - though I appreciate Zaimat's comment on a previous post.



7. If there is to be some form of "galactic wonder" through technology or what have you, this may have a negative impact rather than a positive one on an established civilisation, as they may feel their own cultural identity is in jeopardy rather than bringing floods of recruits. This would be different for less-civlised cultures which would see the greatest benefit from joining. (Minor idea I would think.)



8. Predefined imperial boundary, which moves as your sphere of influence changes, so that other ships cannot go roaming all over the place without permission or it would be considered an act of aggression.



9. A more demonstrable mechanism to enforce economic blockades, whether by sorrounding a planet, or enforcing policy via diplomacy. (MoO2's was alright with the possibility of starvation.)



10. The ability to hire pirates and mercenaries to harass and attack another empire without your own navy getting the blame. Capture and utilise another empire's craft and use them up for the attacks. A brilliant prelude to war.



11. Troop transport ships that can defend themselves!



12. Ships which have to drydock to upgrade.



13. Moddable. Sorry, but it had to be said.



Whilst I know some (if not most) of these suggestions have been made before or are in games already, it would be nice to see them all rolled up into one neat gaming delight! Skimp on the graphics I say if it means that my spy network can wreak havoc on an unsuspecting empire and lay the blame at somebody else's door. All the while I'm undercutting your empire's main energy production supply (and export) on the galactic market!



Anyway, that's all I can think of for now.

[Sobriquet]

Because of inherent design issues with other games, players have resorted to using 'outdated' ships as fodder, not because it's morally responsible (to your people) or that it makes sense (except in dire circumstances). . . . I think we've all seen combats where half the AI ships designed 10 turns earlier can't 'compete' which are totally ignored by the player and certainly take away from the fun factor (not realistic).



AND . . .



And no sane commander that wants to keep his job would order a squadron of such planes to go keep the enemy 'busy'.

[Zaimat]

Let's assume there was an advancement in engines last turn.. Any taskforces that return to a shipyard equipped base are automatically upgraded and repaired after a turn passes. Currently there is no extra cost and no plans to add one. Each ship has a maintenance cost every turn and the cost of ongoing repairs and upgrades is part of it.



"For me one of the hardest things to deal with in MoO3 was the inability to refit, until i modded the tech slowdown to a crawl so by the time a class of ship became 'outdated' they were being used up as decoys on frontier worlds or as cannon fodder."



I know you guys are thinking with regard to how it's been done in the past in other games. But a lot of things are different in Horizon and I ask that you guys think a bit outside the envelope.



In Horizon, Tech advancements work differently and ships are more valuable. While you may sacrifice a ship to save something worthwhile, you are not going to want to use a fleet for simple fodder.



Because of inherent design issues with other games, players have resorted to using 'outdated' ships as fodder, not because it's morally responsible (to your people) or that it makes sense (except in dire circumstances). This has also had the effect of leaving the AI fleets weak. I think we've all seen combats where half the AI ships designed 10 turns earlier can't 'compete' which are totally ignored by the player and certainly take away from the fun factor (not realistic). Now you can always fix such issues but imo it's always better to have a design that doesn't require a fix..



If we take a look at the US military combat Airplanes (F14.F15.F16.F18), they all cost millions of dollars to build, they pretty much all get upgraded with the latest electronics as often as possible, certainly the ones on combat duty. And no sane commander that wants to keep his job would order a squadron of such planes to go keep the enemy 'busy'. We've all seen how they utilize their more-advanced stealth bombers first to clear out the 'path' for the more vulnerable older planes.





"With this 'refit' of a sort, will we hand design these new ships one by one, will we have penalties for refitting older class ships with newer techs (ie, less space, inability to remove ship drives, costing more to cram newer crap into an older ship and ripping out the older crap, etc. etc.)."



Ship design has 3 parts: base (core systems), weapons, auxiliary.



Base systems are universal and race specific and no we don't make you select a bridge, an engine or life support, all designs come equipped with one. <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley1.gif">



Weapons and auxiliary systems are ship specific and what you get to choose to put on your ship design (there are 4 size classes). Power is a determining factor on what you should install, if your beam weapon can't get enuff juice well it won't fire..



Will we allow players to re-design a ship and change the weapons/auxiliary systems to turn a troops transport to a bomber? Perhaps if we see it really adds to the gameplay. You can be assured re-designing ships won't be because tech advancements constantly forcing you to like in past games. This is not an issue with Horizon.
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Horizon - Lead Designer

[Sobriquet]

I dont know what he means exactly with how he worded his question



I think we are asking the same thing, although you have asked for more indepth analysis. Does the player have to 'push a button' to dock a ship and therefore initiate refit, or is it an automatic process that is initiated as soon as a new refit tech is available. And, what are the bonuses/penalties associated with my options.



I prefer the player controlled choice. There are going to be instances where I do not want to refit. Whether it be a cost issue or maybe, like you said, I want a decoy fleet to use as cannon fodder.
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[Sabin]

I dont know what he means exactly with how he worded his question but my question is of the same nature.

Will the player click a TF and have an option at a Shipyard System/Planet/Orbital/base to upgrade at an immediate shot to your wallet, or will it be automatic like Sobriquet asked and just increase Maintenance costs? With this 'refit' of a sort, will we hand design these new ships one by one, will we have penalties for refitting older class ships with newer techs (ie, less space, inability to remove ship drives, costing more to cram newer crap into an older ship and ripping out the older crap, etc. etc.).



For me one of the hardest things to deal with in MoO3 was the inability to refit, until i modded the tech slowdown to a crawl so by the time a class of ship became 'outdated' they were being used up as decoys on frontier worlds or as cannon fodder.

I believe if MoO3 had a form of Macro Management as far as Military Build Que, it would have made it so much more enjoyable. for instance.



Build "Mission" Class "Hull Size" to maintain at least "#"



Refit could of been handled in a similar manner in that, you could bring up one of your currently designed ships in a Refit Screen, make the changes, click refit, and it will refit all ships within Reserves, and those that eventually return to reserves as long as sufficient funds are available.



Anyways, Im rambling and talking about MoO3 on the Horizon forum... pity me...
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[Sobriquet]

Will the player have to physically 'dock' a ship. i.e. Will docking a ship be a 'hard' command that a player has to purposefully initiate, or are 'docking' upgrades initiated as soon as new technology is researched?
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[Zaimat]

"I would hate to be given too much automation (I'm a control freak by nature) during the game. What if I want to keep a ship for cannon fodder? Would it be a simple matter of not docking that type of ship?"



Hehe, I'm a control freak myself. What we have tried hard in Horizon is to give full-control to the player but remove anything that can be considered more of a chore (such as manually upgrading your ships everytime you get better engines for example).



'I'm told' that currently the cost of maintenance of a ship covers the upgrade. So there is no reason not to. But if this changes, I don't see a problem by letting the player decide if they want to dock or not.
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[Sabin]

I have another question. Will there be strategic/leisurely(sp?) resources? That is one of the major push factors for many of the wars throughout history.
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and what's with this handbasket?

[Ravana]

I feel so greedy - and foolish - as I meant to mention the following too:



14. The ability to influence the importation of illegal/dangerous/controlled substances into an empire. I'm thinking of the drug problem experienced by the Humans in the SP IG2 campaign. (Of course, this goes back to the pirate/smuggler points above.)



15. Will we be able to produce or hire (more 3rd party shenanigans) blockade runners to supply blockaded planets?



16. Will there be a visible effect on a blockaded planet in terms of ground forces staving off invasion?



17. In terms of capturing "real estate" will it be necessary to utilise ground forces, or will domination from space been sufficient? I suspect the former rather than the latter, but I had to ask.



18. Is it possible for us to provide non-military support to another empire without being in an alliance or being dragged into the war? Think of the USA before declaring hostilities during WWII.



Sorry if some of these questions are obvious, but I don't have access to the downloads at the moment.



P.S. You didn't answer the modding question at No. 13 above, Zaimat you devil!<img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley2.gif">

[Ravana]

Thanks for that Zaimat. It's good to know that a lot of the improvements I'd like to see are going to be implemented.



I really wish you'd reconsider on the pirate/privateer front. I believe it's vitally important that the player is given every opportunity to do nothing but parade their military around whilst waging intergalactic war. That is to say, if I decided to play like a sneaky so and so, I do not want to have to deploy any military assets in my campaign for galactic conquest, but obtain the same results. It should be achievable through other means.



Or to quote a certain TV show:



"Inveigle, lie and obfuscate"



I still like what you have told us though!

[Sobriquet]

At the present format we have decided for any ship that docks at a shipyard facility it will be outfitted with the latest version of the techs without the player having to do it manually.



Could you expand on this a little? How about a hypothetical 'for instance'? I would hate to be given too much automation (I'm a control freak by nature) during the game. What if I want to keep a ship for cannon fodder? Would it be a simple matter of not docking that type of ship?
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[Zaimat]

Welcome Ravana



"what I would also like is to be able to negotiate or broker a peace deal between factions. "



At this point the game allows you to exert pressure to avert hostilities between races specially if you have strong influence or good relations with them.



"In terms of research, I've never understood why I have to research one particular type of tech or single item at a time. "



You can research multiple techs and tech fields at once in Horizon.



"Capturing technology from enemy ships and bases/planets. "



In regards to certain types of tech, like weapons. In horizon they are very much race specific. In fact we've tried to make each race as unique as possible to give realism. Thus it won't be possible to research or repair alien specific technologies. But you will be able to use them if you get your hands on it.



"If there are to be active fleet battles (pretty, pretty please), it would be nice to see a control mechanism that actually controls, and not one that leaves you wondering why you're passively watching your ships blow up, or make choices which have little impact on the course of the battle."



Yup. Full tactical combat.



"Predefined imperial boundary, which moves as your sphere of influence changes, so that other ships cannot go roaming all over the place without permission or it would be considered an act of aggression."



As I've explained the open-space system in Horizon, this also allows sectors and spheres of influence. Which the controlling race will consider as part of their territory and space.



"A more demonstrable mechanism to enforce economic blockades, whether by sorrounding a planet, or enforcing policy via diplomacy. "



You will be able to do this exactly by surrounding a planet with a fleet as well as threatening it through diplomacy..



"The ability to hire pirates and mercenaries to harass and attack another empire without your own navy getting the blame. "



There most likely will be pirates (we are still working on this), whether you will be able to control them I'm not so sure (probably not).



"Troop transport ships that can defend themselves"



Certainly they can be equipped with weapons.



". Ships which have to drydock to upgrade"



At the present format we have decided for any ship that docks at a shipyard facility it will be outfitted with the latest version of the techs without the player having to do it manually.
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Horizon - Lead Designer

[Sim-Mania]

8. Predefined imperial boundary, which moves as your sphere of influence changes, so that other ships cannot go roaming all over the place without permission or it would be considered an act of aggression



I like this idea from Ravana. Not only does it provide a practical use, but presentation ways, you could easily tell who are the major powers in the galaxy.

[Zaimat]

"Game economy. Will the player be building massive fleets, i.e. thousands of ships, or will armadas be modelled after the 'real world'. A half dozen super carriers flanked by dozens of support vessels?"



You got it, the second. There wouldn't be much of a tactical combat if there were too many combat ships.



As for economy, it follows a lot reality. You'll find that as much as possible things will make sense in Horizon. You have a population, a portion of your population makes your workforce (depending on the race and other factors a certain amount of your people are able to work). A portion of these are scientists, farmers, etc.



Your homeworld is your most important asset. Colonizing a colony and after 20-30 turns it becoming more populated than your homeworld isn't something likely to happen.. A new colony starts with a thousand people, your homeworld (in the case of humans) has 6+ billion. But once you develop a colony even with 100,000 people you will defend it, because their value is huge just like your homeworld. Populations drive your economy, your research, the people are the center of your power.



Will planet development be much different than what we are used to for this type of game?



In my view the implementation is very different. From an interface point of view, you'll find it straight-forward in control of each colony development, everything is laid out clearly, no lists, no menus. When and if you choose to look deeper (such as I explained above) you'll find a layer that reflects reality.



We have tried to stick with the 'keep it simple yet hard to master' rule. And the focus isn't on one thing like colony development, it's just one part of the game, make a decision than continue on with the game, see how it plays out..
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Horizon - Lead Designer