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amcelroy
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 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Will the planetary management be similar to MOO3? They had a great AI programmed that took away a lot of the micromanagement that killed MOO2 in the endgames.
In short, what kind of micromanagement will be required of the player? |
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Sabin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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[Sobriquet]
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| [amcelroy] . . .MOO3? They had a great AI programmed that took away a lot of the micromanagement that killed MOO2 in the endgames. |
(I know I'm opening a can of worms, but here I go anyway. . .  )
IMO, the implementation of the planetary viceroy in MOO3 was/is a near complete disaster. The abstractness brought into the design took away almost all feeeling of being in control of your empire. The idea was noble, however it's efficacy was dubious at best. In order to get your planets to produce what you expect, the player is mired in micromanagement trying to overcome the macromanagement tools.
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I had to comment on this post specifically...
I havent heard of any recent visits by the president to my town to setup plans to expand on the local school...  My point is... Feeling as though you are in Control of your Empire does not always equate to determining what building is built in what town, of what state, of what region, of what planet, in what system. |
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Zaimat
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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We hope to be able to support the fans to the best of our abilities after the release because we are fans ourselves of the game. If the support of the fans is there and economically viable (we do need to earn a living after all) we will keep building and improving on the foundations.[edited]
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Ravana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| So very true Sobriquet. Novalogic have something of a poor record of this. At least with regards to some games. |
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Sobriquet
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not saying the fans shouldn't support the games they love however possible, it would just be nice to have some support from the devs.
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Ravana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [Sobriquet]It's just such a shame that it has to be the fans who will fix the game and not the devs. |
Maybe, and maybe not. These days, games rely upon the support of the fanbase to keep the spirit alive, as it were.
In fact, who better to develop a game then the fans themselves?
I do think it's a shame that the developers weren't allowed to produce the game they wanted to make - as much for them as the fans.
You could see the changes coming on the forum. So many ideas, some of which were unworkable, but showing great enthusiasm and desire to see the best game that could be made...Still, we were all fired up in expectation of another classic in the strategy field. Typically, money has had it's way again.
I'm rather hoping you guys are right. In a few years time, MoO3 will be the must-play nostalgia game of the genre. L3O will be working on Horizon 3 about the same time. |
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Sobriquet
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [RobHuntingdon]In two or three years when the few remaining fans have fixed all the problems it will probably be a good game. |
It's just such a shame that it has to be the fans who will fix the game and not the devs.
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RobHuntingdon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well... I am quite glad I managed to obtain (legally, btw) a copy of MOO3 for only $7 real money. Of course, I had to trade in a bunch of old games I didn't want and didn't play anyway -- hmm, I don't see a downside here. And I still got it at release... at the time, I still was hoping for a whole lot more than I got.
Actually, I am one of those few in betweens. I see hope for it, with a major rewriting of half the spreadsheets the overwhelmingly HUGE problems with the game could theoretically all be fixed. In two or three years when the few remaining fans have fixed all the problems it will probably be a good game.
But the short explaination for MOO3s myriads of problems was the same exact thing that killed all the B5 spinoffs. They hired a genius to do the work, then wouldn't let him do what he knew was best.
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Sobriquet
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [ravana]As for MoO3...I never even bothered to get it. |
Some hated, some loved it. Not very many in between.
I am a tad anal-rententive in my game play, so a bit of micromanagemnt is actually wlecomed. The micro in MOO1 was tolerable whereas the end game micro in MOO2 was too tedious.
It's a thin line only knowable to the gamer.
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Ravana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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[Zaimat]The straight-forward kind. You won't need to read the manual to figure it out. A few minutes of clicking buttons should be all that's needed to grasp how 95% of it works. That doesn't mean that you will master the consequences of your decisions, simply that you will master the colony management screen  |
That's all that any game should ever need. Well done to L3O for that!
Personally, I don't mind spreadsheet micromanagement, but I know it isn't for some. If the game play is good, it won't be because you you either do or do not have this style of play.
As for MoO3...I never even bothered to get it. I've often wondered if the game failed due to "too many cooks..." or because it tried to achieve things that were too complicated to produce. During the development phase, the forum was full of fantastic people who had a lot of great ideas. It seems a shame to waste all of that - but there you go.  |
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Sobriquet
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [amcelroy]The problem with MOO3 is that they didn't explain the manufacturing algorythm very well. |
Or nearly every other aspect of the game.  This is probably one of the most telling aspects of a game which is directly proportional to the ever elusive 'fun' factor. If the player lacks sufficient feedback to his/her actions then the 'game' devolves into a button smashing excercise in futility. Or as ravana said, "With too much abstraction, it merely becomes an exercise in clock-watching. Which is not something I'd want to do.
AMEN!!
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| [zaimat] You won't need to read the manual to figure it out. A few minutes of clicking buttons should be all that's needed to grasp how 95% of it works. That doesn't mean that you will master the consequences of your decisions, simply that you will master the colony management screen. |
This statement speaks volumes for what I hope is ultimately the game's direction.
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amcelroy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Short, sweet, and simple. I am really glad to see it won't be a super complex system. |
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Zaimat
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| In short, what kind of micromanagement will be required of the player? |
The straight-forward kind. You won't need to read the manual to figure it out. A few minutes of clicking buttons should be all that's needed to grasp how 95% of it works. That doesn't mean that you will master the consequences of your decisions, simply that you will master the colony management screen
MOO had a simple yet effective method. In Horizon we've taken a totally different method (there is an actual planetary screen, as there is a lot more stuff going on) but it has a similar ease of use.
Everything is laid out, so you can see everything needed without having to dig deep, the information is strictly what the player needs. And most decisions are one-click away.
Our view is the planetary management screen is an important one but just one piece of the game, people who are looking for more 'spreadsheet' like micro-management where you spend a lot of time with details will have to look elsewhere. Once you know what you want, there isn't too much to fiddle with, very straight-forward, very fast and simple execution.[edited]
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amcelroy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with MOO3 is that they didn't explain the manufacturing algorythm very well. If you trolled the MOO3 boards and found the excellent posts detailing how the Production Points were used, it really makes getting the computer to do what you want quite simple. You couldn't even remotely get this information from the manual, and it sure wasn't intuitive. Once the process was understood, the game was that much more enjoyable.
Summary: I hope L30 writes a really good manual no matter what system they implement. |
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Ravana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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[Sobriquet]Clear, direct commands which produce easily quanitfiable results.
"Easy to learn, hard to master." |
Nice. 
The problem is what's "fun"? It really is that simple a question with a very complicated answer.
For the sake of simplicity, we assume that we will have one set of tools with which to administrate our empires. As players we find different things interesting, so the tools should really be set up to accommodate that fact.
I agree with your assessment of micro/macromanagement Sobriquet, as the player should be given enough to do to make the empire his/hers. With too much abstraction, it merely becomes an exercise in clock-watching. Which is not something I'd want to do.
However, how do you make it so that the toolset does not become a spreadsheet-fest? After all, if economic power is a way to achieve victory, shouldn't we have the werewithal to conduct as interesting a campaign as the one we would wage with guns and ships?
Allowing the player to choose the level of involvement with elements such as politics and economics would encourage all players to try a different tactic rather than the fleet/tech approach.
If you could suddenly turn up the political machine from "Machiavelli" to "Pure Bl**dy Evil", wouldn't you be intrigued to see what new and different things you could do? I know I would.
Edit: Then again, I'd like to win without firing a shot![edited] |
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Sobriquet
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [amcelroy] . . .MOO3? They had a great AI programmed that took away a lot of the micromanagement that killed MOO2 in the endgames. |
(I know I'm opening a can of worms, but here I go anyway. . . )
IMO, the implementation of the planetary viceroy in MOO3 was/is a near complete disaster. The abstractness brought into the design took away almost all feeeling of being in control of your empire. The idea was noble, however it's efficacy was dubious at best. In order to get your planets to produce what you expect, the player is mired in micromanagement trying to overcome the macromanagement tools.
I hope L3O does not follow this path. Taking away the player's effectiveness in controlling all apsects of their empire equates to a loss of fun, also just my opinion.
Now, the macro tools of MOO1 were simple, elegant as well as efficient. If any macromanagement is to be implemented, I hope it is done in this manner. Clear, direct commands which produce easily quanitfiable results.
"Easy to learn, hard to master." |
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Ravana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| [Sabin]My point is... Feeling as though you are in Control of your Empire does not always equate to determining what building is built in what town, of what state, of what region, of what planet, in what system. |
I suppose it depends on what you play and/or expect to play...You do place all your buildings for each planet in 'Imperium Galactica'. You can even set up the facility to advance military, industrial or civilian structures ahead of actual colonly need i.e. they need a hospital but you want to build a planetary shield first.
Of course, you don't get to do that in MoO, so you adapt to the game you're playing. I don't mind either way, but it is nice to have some say in your town planning.
Essentially though, I hold the same view as you Sabin. It isn't necessary, or sometimes even helpful to have that much control over each colony. You should really be planning your galaxy-wide campaign of subterfuge and destruction. Not winning awards for urban redevelopment! |
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