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Sim-Mania
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
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Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:34 pm Post subject: Outposts/outer colonies

I'm not sure if this gameplay question has come up before. Previously in other games like Moo3, when you start the game and you have your initial expansion period, you usually like to turn your outer-most colonies into outpost, listening posts, or fortress planets. However, being the outermost colonies as well as the youngest colonies, you never have a greater enough population or manufacturing points, to produce the gun platforms or other defense systems fast enough. And by the time you do have enough manufacturing points and a large enough population to accomplish this, you've probably already expanded your empire, and thus the problem starts all over again.

I was just wondering if and how Horizan has incorporated this gameplay issue?

By the way the ships continue to look very impresive, much more so than Moo3.

Therlun
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject:

as far as i know expansion will be different to other games.
colonies take long to develop and you have a smaller number of them.

i really hope it is that way, so colonies get something "special". a colony should something you 'care' about.
im looking forward to a game where the growth of your empire is not only represented by founding endless colonies.
i especially hate colony-rushs in the beginning, like in Galciv.

i could imagine a type of settlement that is ONLY able to be an outpost. it has only one purpose and is not ment to become a colony.
-a spy-outpost following the ship movements of your neighbour empire,
-or a science facility that reseraches the the special conditionts on the planet or system it is on/in,
-or a prototype testcenter for dangerous experiments,

i guess there wont be supply outposts (?) since i did read somewhere your shiprange is unlimited.... Sad

Sim-Mania
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:15 am Post subject:

RobHuntingdon
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:04 am Post subject:

Hmm. Well, from what Zaimat has said in various other places, this is my personal guess on things. It seems that, as the late-comers to the intergalactic game, there probably won't be a ton of room for expansion. He mentioned something about every colony being 'very' valuable to you, they would be something you would agressively defend, but your homeworld would be far, far more valuable still. Buildup would take a VERY long time, and colonization was 'extremely expensive'. He also mentioned that you would not usually group your ships together into a big 'uber' fleet because it would leave your planets vulnerable.

My summary of this is that it seems ships are your primary means of defending a planet. So you would probably build additional fleet vessels either while or before you build the colony ship, and probably would send it out well escorted. Those escorts would then stick around to defend the new colony.

But I have been known to be wrong on occassion... Shocked

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Robert, the Earl of Huntingdon

Tarry here, my merry men, whilst I seek what adventure await in yonder greenwood; but look thou listen for my call, for I will blow my horn if I become hard-pressed.

Adapted from Sterling, pg. 45

Therlun
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:01 am Post subject:

RobHuntingdon wrote:

But I have been known to be wrong on occassion... Shocked

like when you decided to create a fansite for what most later saw as game-dissapointment of the decade? Wink

i can really feel with you on that topic. i worked for moo3planet.de(THE german Moo3 site) a long time.
a shame it had to end that way...

RobHuntingdon
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:11 am Post subject:

Therlun wrote:

RobHuntingdon wrote:

But I have been known to be wrong on occassion... Shocked

like when you decided to create a fansite for what most later saw as game-dissapointment of the decade? Wink

i can really feel with you on that topic. i worked for moo3planet.de(THE german Moo3 site) a long time.
a shame it had to end that way...

Heh... well you're right about the disappointment. Would have been nice if things had gone differently. But actually, I didn't create OS, I just took over running it when the original creator got tired of the game. Though whether that was a good decision or not is still open to debate I suppose...
_________________
Robert, the Earl of Huntingdon

Tarry here, my merry men, whilst I seek what adventure await in yonder greenwood; but look thou listen for my call, for I will blow my horn if I become hard-pressed.

Adapted from Sterling, pg. 45

Zaimat
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Joined: 08 Aug 2003
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Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject:

I'm responding in this thread regarding colonies/outposts since it's more appropriate.

Ravana wrote:

Zaimat wrote:

Most colonies will be more like outposts, strategically picked.

So, from this may we deduce that outposts will have some genuine strategic benefit to the empire, or merely in terms of establishing the frontier with your people?

The most noteworthy outpost uses I can think of straight off the bat are sensor outposts, military bases and research facilities. I don't suppose we're going to get hidden fortifications Zaimat? Something that you could leave behind enemy lines and use to raid shipping or help interdict planets?

Outposts have never been implemented properly as far as I can see, so it would be nice to have them do something, anything, for a change!

The idea behind outposts is strategic value. This process is still evolving and we are looking to make them more important in a variety of ways. But at it's basic form it's meant to get your foot in an area where you think it's important to be. Outposts can benefit all facets of your empire, they can be used as a first-warning-system, to see/spy/hear on what's happening in an area of space, to promote expansion and trade to an area of space, research and military bases etc.

Ravana, I like the idea of hidden (secret) outposts, making trouble... But nothing of the sort is planned atm.

Sim-Mania wrote:

Since the use of lisenting posts and outposts will be more prevalent in Horizon, will that mean when it is your turn, if there have been any incursions into your empires space or domain, will there be an automatic message that comes up. It has been discussed about how very large the Horizon galaxy will be, therefore I assum it will be very difficult to keep an eye on all parts of your empire, in which case it would be whole lot easier to recieve an automatic message rather than continuously checking every corner of your empire.

Of course if they are employing stealth technology, that is something else entirely.

What happens is, if you are in between turns, well you get to see your galaxy map clearly indicating any objects trespassing in your space. If you are in between turns, one of two things will happen. If nothing else is happening, your view will automatically move to that sector of space and you watch/take actions. If you were already 'busy' with another event you will get a notification and you can either choose to ignore it (let the AI deal with it) or switch your focus there and oversee it yourself.

Sim-Mania wrote:

However, being the outermost colonies as well as the youngest colonies, you never have a greater enough population or manufacturing points, to produce the gun platforms or other defense systems fast enough. And by the time you do have enough manufacturing points and a large enough population to accomplish this, you've probably already expanded your empire, and thus the problem starts all over again.

Good point. The primary form of defense will be your fleet in most cases. Having said that, you will be able to have some defenses built without the population or manufacturing abilities of homeworld albeit at some cost. It comes down to planning. Also the fact that in Horizon movement is not limited to 'starlanes' even if you expand, that fortified base of operations still remains a strong-point in your empire so it's not 'wasted'.

Therlun wrote:

guess there wont be supply outposts (?) since i did read somewhere your shiprange is unlimited....

Ship range will not be limited by any artificial factors (ie: fuel). You will be able to explore any part of the galaxy at any time. Limited only by time/distance.

It is assumed all outposts are by default also major supply bases. The distance from your outposts/systems/borders will have some effect on your fleet.

RobHuntingdon wrote:

It seems that, as the late-comers to the intergalactic game, there probably won't be a ton of room for expansion. He mentioned something about every colony being 'very' valuable to you, they would be something you would agressively defend, but your homeworld would be far, far more valuable still. Buildup would take a VERY long time, and colonization was 'extremely expensive'. He also mentioned that you would not usually group your ships together into a big 'uber' fleet because it would leave your planets vulnerable.

My summary of this is that it seems ships are your primary means of defending a planet. So you would probably build additional fleet vessels either while or before you build the colony ship, and probably would send it out well escorted. Those escorts would then stick around to defend the new colony.

You got it right for the most part. There will be a lot of systems/planets available to explore (hundreds of systems, a few thousand planets unless you change the parameters of the galaxy). Expansion and exploration will not be just part of the start of the game but are throughout the game. The act of colonizing isn't the hard part, but developing that colony. So you will pick the best planets or the most important strategically.

Everything else you said is right on the money. You will want escorts and your fleet is crucial in all aspects of running your empire safely and securely.
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Ravana
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:04 am Post subject:

Zaimat wrote:

Ravana, I like the idea of hidden (secret) outposts, making trouble... But nothing of the sort is planned atm.

Just another piece of SFB/F&E for you there boss. The Klingons were infamous for leaving PF or Figher bases in asteroid fields and such. Very useful for raiding enemy shipping.

Zaimat wrote:

This is intriguing, Zaimat. Would you be able to explain what you mean by "let the AI deal with it"? Do you mean an automated defence? Not the static variety, but (one of) your fleets dealing with the problem on a local level? Perhaps following standard orders to engage and capture/destroy aggressor fleets or unknown objects in your sphere of influence?

Zaimat wrote:

It is assumed all outposts are by default also major supply bases. The distance from your outposts/systems/borders will have some effect on your fleet.

So, will there be a penalty for ships being "unsupplied"? A lowering of the attack/defence rating, or a general reduction in performance?

Sim-Mania
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject:

speaking about the galaxy veiw. The ship previews have been great, much, much (MUCH) better than moo3, but when can we expect to see some actual screen shots of the galaxy and the various displays? It'll be very interesting to see how everything talked about here, has acutally been incorporated into the game.

Ravana
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:57 am Post subject:

Right on Sim! Last time I asked, the guys were going over some changes, so we couldn't see the interface. How about it Zaimat? Any chance that a sneaky-peak might be on the cards?

Therlun
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Location: Germany

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:42 pm Post subject:

yes! we ask for ingame shots!
they dont need to be polished, or spectecular...

just something to identify the game.

NifluumHaloom
Voyager

Joined: 07 Aug 2004
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject:

Zaimat has mentioned trade as a funcition of colonies. Now, I am curious how trade is going to happen. Is trade just another source of income, eg. related to the your spaceport output?

RobHuntingdon
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject:

Zaimat wrote:

RobHuntingdon wrote:

Cool. But what I still don't quite understand is how you define 'important strategically' and 'best planets'. By this do you mean more things along the lines of 'good positioning' and 'lots of minerals'?

Can you give us a list (even partial) of the factors that improve or reduce desirability?
_________________
Robert, the Earl of Huntingdon

Tarry here, my merry men, whilst I seek what adventure await in yonder greenwood; but look thou listen for my call, for I will blow my horn if I become hard-pressed.

Adapted from Sterling, pg. 45

Zaimat
Dev. Team

Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 350
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:00 am Post subject:

Sim-Mania wrote:

when can we expect to see some actual screen shots of the galaxy and the various displays? It'll be very interesting to see how everything talked about here, has acutally been incorporated into the game.

I hear you. And I would very much like to show you guys some screens but it's a bit complicated and I hope you guys can be patient and understand the process.

First thing is in game development and specially with regards to game screens/interface it's constantly changing and in many cases we have place-holder graphics. We are not yet in a stage where things have mostly stabilized, this won't happen till we enter beta.

The other thing is for marketing: all the game review sites want exclusive or new stuff (to drive their traffic). So probably in game screens will first appear when we start moving along that path.

NifluumHaloom wrote:

Zaimat has mentioned trade as a funcition of colonies. Now, I am curious how trade is going to happen. Is trade just another source of income, eg. related to the your spaceport output?

It is assumed trade always exists once other races find out about your existance (or vice-versa) but it's negligeable before you build a facility.
So real trade starts once you have built (trader docks) for traders.

After that a number of factors influence trade. Relations/treaties with other races, how safe the paths are on trade routes, better facilities, direct promotion of trade as well as how good your race is at trade also plays a small part.

RobHuntingdon wrote:

But what I still don't quite understand is how you define 'important strategically' and 'best planets'. By this do you mean more things along the lines of 'good positioning' and 'lots of minerals'?

Well best planets is in regards to the viability such as the atmosphere being native to your race (this is a huge factor), mineral resources are also important if you plan to build a colony with real industry, etc.

Where as strategically it has more to do with military or economic goals. Like you said, it's mostly about the position.

Ideally you want to have it all in one colony because as I've pointed out developing a colony (or just holding onto it) is a costly venture but it won't always be an option.
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Ravana
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:20 am Post subject:

Zaimat wrote:

I hear you. And I would very much like to show you guys some screens but it's a bit complicated and I hope you guys can be patient and understand the process.

Understandable boss.

Zaimat wrote:

So, it's always a factor in inter-species relationships, but trade docks have to be a part of the equation. Presumably then, they would boost the amount of income generated, but is that without a trade agreement, or is their function really to increase revenue - or even allow revenue to flow only once that agreement has been made? To put it another way, you will need trade docks to make a trade agreement?

Either way, where are trade docks built? Are they another "building" type on a planet, or are they part of an orbital facility? Perhaps they are an orbital facility in and of themselves. In essence, a MoO/IG structure or a GalCiv module?

Also, with regards to placement, this comment here has intrigued me:

Zaimat wrote:

how safe the paths are on trade routes

For me, this raises the issue of whether you have to establish a route initially, the way you would using the two cities approach in Civilization? Perhaps there are pre-defined trade paths that are deemed safe for use between areas of space held by the two empires. (Though this would depend on the territory held by the two, and is very likely to fluctuate and change.)

Also, what do you regard as a hazard on a trade route? Presumably, piracy, debris fields or nebulae, that sort of thing. Can we guard routes other than escorting trade ships, or can we (re-) define routes entirely?

Zaimat wrote:

better facilities

Presumably, this is the trade dock we are talking about, or are there other logistical factors which can influence trade in our favour?

Zaimat wrote:

direct promotion of trade

Will this be handled by a socio-cultural politics scheme, some way to influence sectors of space without utilising force? I guess I'm thinking of GalCiv when I say that. Perhaps we can divest part of our yearly budget on memetic war after all, Zaimat!

Zaimat wrote:

Where as strategically it has more to do with military or economic goals. Like you said, it's mostly about the position

So, do you mean that in a literal sense in that if you expect to war (or are warring) with one particular empire, you would most likely want to keep a new-found colony away from the action? Perhaps you mean something entirely opposite or different to that, Zaimat. I'm struggling to think how position has anything to do with a 4X game, when you are not limited in your strategic or tactical movement. This would make more sense if terrain had a direct action in territorial development...

Zaimat
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Presumably then, they would boost the amount of income generated, but is that without a trade agreement, or is their function really to increase revenue - or even allow revenue to flow only once that agreement has been made? To put it another way, you will need trade docks to make a trade agreement?

Trade agreements facilitate (increase) trade, they are not necessary. To be able to trade, your citizens have to produce 'something'. For example if an agricultural colony can produce more food than required for the local market, the extra production can be traded based on the other factors already mentioned.

Trade docks are colony builds and built on the planet itself. Making a trade agreement without having trader docks is possible but it won't really help much. As for Orbital stations they are trade facilitators.

Regarding trade routes, the design is for Trade ships to be independantly operated (think civilian) and you play no direct part in how they operate. I can't say more on this as it's still being worked out.

The main hazard for trade to stop or weaken would be war or hostile ships operating in the area of space that trade ships travel. By raising your military presence in these areas you help raise the security. If the path between 2 empires isn't relatively safe, trade will ultimately slow down.

Quote:

Not quite sure I understand how this would work.. Do elaborate. Although I wouldn't be surprised if memetic warfare makes into the game one way or another, you've got me quite brain-washed (err taken) with it...

Quote:

So, do you mean that in a literal sense in that if you expect to war (or are warring) with one particular empire, you would most likely want to keep a new-found colony away from the action?

It would depend on your plans for the colony. If there is a shooting war going on between a couple of races not far from your borders, having a presence nearby would be strategically important whether to observe or prepare if it spoils and drags you in the war too...
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Sim-Mania
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:16 pm Post subject:

Just another simple question about outposts that I came to think about. I know it hasn't been set in stone about how exactly ouptosts will function in Horizon, yet to say they will have an important strategic value. I was just wondering then, if ouposts were very specific in their function (a way of adding strategic value), will outposts be able to grow into larger colonies, or will you actually have to send an additional colony ship if you believe that the planet in question would have more of a value to your empire as a thirving and full colony.

Zaimat
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject:

Sim-Mania wrote:

Yes. It won't be limited to one function. If you decide and the conditions are favorable to develop a listening post to a full fledged colony, nothing will stop it. You won't be required to re-colonize it or anything. It's just how much credits you spend on developing the outpost, how favorable the conditions are (planetary, economic, area of space, etc). And of course a matter of time.

I just want to add one more thing, in Horizon while colonies are not static, changing drastically a research colony to industrial is an endeavour that takes time. You can't just take the 200k scientists and turn them into engineers. It will take time and can't be forced. Just because you build the facilities isn't enough.
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Sim-Mania
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:28 am Post subject:

There is one issue that I hope can be incorporated into Horizon. When a neighboring empire builds a colony or outpost within your borders, you should have every right to demand that the intruding party leaves quick smart, and if they don't, you should have every legitimate reason to destroy their colony/outpost. In any case, the important thing is -

- Your actions in removing their presence within your empires border, should not effect the diplomatic relations with other races, nor should thier attitude towards you be effected.

- This should not be counted as a factor in any matrix that governs what reasons a computer has, to go to war with you, or when it decides to go to war with you.

After all, the computer was in the wrong first, and if there are negatives effects as a result of any action taken, they should belong to the computer.

Ravana
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:

Zaimat wrote:

I agree on the effects of agreements, but will the surplus be traded automatically, or will we have to send it all, or perhaps a player-defined quota? I'm thinking of the "Famine on..." heading you see periodically in MoO. It might be we need that extra food for another colony. That is pre-supposing we can ship it that way ourselves...?

Zaimat wrote:

The main hazard for trade to stop or weaken would be war or hostile ships operating in the area of space that trade ships travel. By raising your military presence in these areas you help raise the security. If the path between 2 empires isn't relatively safe, trade will ultimately slow down.

Hmmm, so how do we go about policing that area between our two empires? Will it be a case of escorting trade vessels which seems too costly and time consuming? Will we be able to build bases along the way? Though, I imagine this would seem to risk the ire of your trading partner. Perhaps we will have routine patrols along that sector. Maybe joint operations? It would certainly give you time to study the other empire's ships and capabilities! Evil or Very Mad

Zaimat wrote:

Ravana wrote:

Will this be handled by a socio-cultural politics scheme, some way to influence sectors of space without utilising force? I guess I'm thinking of GalCiv when I say that.

Not quite sure I understand how this would work..

I was thinking about the base modules you can build in GalCiv. You could enhance your empire's cultural profile in that region of space, although it seemed to have little impact for me, but there you go... I was thinking of what we call "cultural imperialism". Perhaps I want to increase the profile of SolCola® . Or maybe the latest fad of Martian BioIndustries Neon Pheromone Body Paint has an overly stimulating effect on Lezgoon physiology which in turn, leads to a greater likelihood that the Lezgoon will buy Terran in the future. Any kind of agreement is much more probable if that other party likes us. All of which goes to increase our galactic profile at the expense of others.

After all, the Terrans can't be that bad. They have that wonderful series on Channel 2086 'The Travels of Ohio Smith'. The story of the absent-minded Terran galactic archaeologist and his long suffering Barsig pilot T'Urin, who only just manages to get their dilapadated heap of a research vessel from point A to point B with the skin of his teeth, is a galactic cultural highlight. In fact, it shadowed the Kuntari Zero-G Phase Ball final between Algeda Champions Club and Kronal'A Achievers by a mere three points on the viewing figures.

(Data courtesy of the Los Angeles L.A. Confidence newsvid research archives.)

Now. Who wants a nice refreshing SolCola. It's the brand you can trust. Very Happy

Zaimat wrote:

If there is a shooting war going on between a couple of races not far from your borders, having a presence nearby would be strategically important whether to observe or prepare if it spoils and drags you in the war too...

I see what you mean. Nice.

Zaimat wrote:

I like the sound of that. It allows flexibility in the event that an outpost has suddenly gained, or will gain, increasing importance. Also, I would imagine by definition that an outpost is cheaper to set up and maintain then a colony. So, I hope we will be able to grab land that we can't build up just yet, but prevent others from claiming it without military intervention. That would allow you time to develop the necessary money and materials to build the outpost to a colony in the long-term. Does that sound reasonable?

Sim-Mania wrote:

Hear, hear! Right on the money Sim. I'm fed up of getting the blame for no real reason, and then being dragged into a war for an NPC mistake. Not that that doesn't happen in real life, but still...

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