Feedback on raids

[Sim-Mania]

I think its great to have the ability to perform stealth raids or interfere with a races economy, production or infrastructure, however, without the appropriate feedback, you have no way of knowing how your covert operations have effected an alien races economy or production capacity.

There should be some way of finding this information out, because I don't know of any game where this has been the case.

[Zaimat]

Can you elaborate a bit more on what sort of stuff you would like to see.

But I totally agree with you that creative feedback can add a lot to a game in many areas, lets the imagination fill in. It's often neglected though as it's one of the extra things left for last and often falls by the wayside on the rush to release a title. Hopefully we won't have that problem.
_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer

[Ravana]

I'm not sure if Sim means through an empire's spying/espionage or military capacity, or whether the reference is to economic/political clout. I presume the former.

I suppose feedback would depend on how much latitude we have to detail spying activities. IG2 allows the destruction of a particular type of building or ship that an empire might possess. The notion is similar if we have the ability to define military raids.

Presupposing that we can destroy particular buildings or facilities, the amount of feedback would depend on how much we know, or think we know about that empire.

E.g. My spies have sabotaged the heavy industry plant on Regis VI. Apart from being told that the facility is destroyed, we might be informed that it will cost the Gargal Regime six million credits and twelve game months to replace at current costs. That's fairly straightforward, but perhaps our spies have prior knowledge that the Regime is having difficulty dealing with Kamzak incursions on their left flank (Galactic North East from the Terran Empire). Not only will the credits be a big hit to the Regime's coffers, but the heavy plant facility is needed to produce an orbital construction yard to make capital-class starships. Thus, their capacity to deal with the Kamzak has been greatly lessened.

We might receive this information via the espionage screen which is fine. But add in other details such as a non-aggression pact secretly made with the Kamzak through diplomacy, and we have an ally in our devious plans to carve up the Gargal's territory, and the plot thickens.

However, perhaps our spies are not as all-powerful as we thought. Perhaps the Gargal were working on another orbital yard prior to the destruction of the first. Unknown to us, they have a mere five-hundred thousand to pay off, and a little over a month to await completion. We've given ourselves a supposed minimum of twelve months grace, a period of time we intend to use to bolster our own fleet for a push on Gargal's mineral rich Quma II.

Eight months later, off we fly, safe in the knowledge that the Gargal have little to match our fleet, when we run smack bang into a Gargal Reaction Force comprised of their new T'phon Class strike carriers and Shur-C fighters. The ensuing battle near the Shu'So Drift results in, not unsurprisingly, the Terran's having their backsides handed to them. Roughly.

How would the Gargal know about our plans for Quma II? Well, their own spy network has caught hold of the com-traffic that has eminated near and on Quma II. Our spies have done an excellent job in scouting potential targets for our military, and identified the most useful/versatile planets for the Regime's military capacity. However, suspecting that the pesky Terrans are at it again, the Regime decides to surveil Terran fleet movements in particular over the next few months and catch us on the hop.

This would never have happened if the Terrans had had more intel on the other races. The Kuntari had made a deal with the Lezgoon for a prototype of the League's new Ghost Light Sensor Array. The Gargal "acquired" this from the Kuntari, and then promptly posted the sensors all along their border, a sensor which can differentiate capital-class ships from conventional trader vessels.

And so it goes on. Perhaps we can allocate a slush fund to bribe imperial servants. Maybe the Terrans would have been informed of the sale of the Ghost Light to the Kuntari. They may have had a chance to intercept the prototype en route to Kuntari space. It might also be possible that the com-traffic and spying routines of the other empires had changed sufficiently and thus revealed that the Kuntari are searching for the miscreants who have stolen a copy of the array. A Terran informant in the Kuntari Department of Knowledge (technology r&d) has revealed the Republic suspect the Gargal. Perhaps that informant can sell us a copy of the plans, and intimate that the Ghost Light might well be able to decipher false sensor echoes from stealth ships, but it is vulnerable to phased tachyon emitters which produce "white noise" on the sensor readouts.

Essentially, this example only really calls on three areas: espionage for the sabotage and spying, a trade or economics or military minister to estimate how soon the Gargal can get their orbital yard on line, and the automated sensor array that each empire erects to defend it's "borders".

Well, that's more than enough for now. But think of the possibilities! All the player would need is the bare bones information for any part of the example I've outlined. Their imaginations would supply the rest, and I haven't even mentioned my ideas for a military version yet.

[Sim-Mania]

What Ravana came up with is great, and he's right. This facet of the game dosen't necessarily have to be intricate or complicated. Say you were able to identify the particular facilities on various planets that were used for income, production, and research. If you had information on the output of the buildings were:-

- with respect to what percentage that building addes to say the total research or production capacity for the entire empire.
- how long it would take to rebuild, or repair.
- What buildings were being used to increase morale.

Then if you did choose to blow up a research, production, or political facility, you would know just what kind of impact it would have on their empire, and how best to take advantage of the situation. Especially when planning for all out war, this could be part of your plan for crippling thier war efforts. Including their ability to obtain their on intelligence.

There's many more interesting and fun directions you could take, I'm just trying to emphasize the fact, that in order for this to add something worth while to the game, it doesn't have to involve the overwhelming work of a 10 page intelligence report about the race in question.

[Sim-Mania]

In the previous post I forgot to mention, that information about a particular colony, outpost, listening post as a whole, would also be of great purpose.

If you knew the capabilities of their bordering listening post, then you could use that information to plan your invasion, and of cousre before your invasion, select which ones would have an unfortunate accident or malfunction.

And if you knew specific information about a particular outpost or colony, eg. the total percentage they add to the empires science, economy, production, then you could devise a attack plan, not based on conquering every single planet, but strategic planets, in which case thier downfall, would lead to the quicker downfall of the empire.

[Zaimat]

I see what you guys are saying. Basically build-up or present a scenario or opportunity for the player to play with espionage and sabotage.
And follow it up, with more feedback on the results of your actions.

Instead of the player initiating an action just because he can without context except perhaps a desire to weaken a position or to cause dmg. to that empire.

Definately adds immersion and a sense of purpose. More fun.

Ravana that was very nice, quite the imagination you got there That would take some doing to weave a web so intricate, definately something to aim for.

I like your ideas of having a lot of specific choices such as bribing the kuntari imperial guards, etc.
_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer

[Ravana]

I readily admit it sounds good on paper Zaimat, but the reality should be we, the player, receive only the outline of that scenario. It is up to our imaginations to interpret the data our Intel gathers correctly.

Of course, I realise that this is easier to say then produce. After all, it would require a definitive matrix that blended strategic and tactical intelligence. We would need economic, production and political "sensors", as well ship detection. The latter we do at least have for sure.

As to the others...it would only work if interpretation of that data did indeed lead to a logical conclusion. Perhaps if the player devoted surveillance resources to monitor comm-traffic, we would find out about the troop movements, or the vulnerability of a non-aligned race due to their up-coming elections. It might be time to recognise the superiority of the Terran species' political and cultural magnificence - even if they don't know it yet.

Perhaps the player receives a report saying that the Gargal's production of Zonium, the rare component in their pre-chamber firing emitters is up 35%. You would know that more Zonium means capital-class weapons production. Why produce weapons if you cannot build the hulls? That might have been another indicator that all is not as it seems in the Regime, and perhaps the Terrans have underestimated the fellows again!

I suppose that I'm saying it requires a "cause-and-effect" device. A + B = C, if you will. That could be very complicated indeed, yet the devices should be readily available to the player. Perhaps, just because they have never done it before, they decide to investigate Kamzak subversive elements. That would lead to the discovery that the Quma Society of Advancement is in reality a rebel organisation that is attempting to wrest independence back from their conquerors. Having found that out, the player then thinks "Right, how do I ship weapons to them?" Next thing you know, you might look at developing a blockade runner to slip past the Regime's garrison and deliver such aid.

Your plans for an open, hostile act go out the window, and you start thinking about the Quma cause. Maybe cynicism runs deep in this Terran administration and what you see is an opportunity to profit from the "sale" of weapons. The Quma could lay off mineral taxes or offer concessions in the (unlikely) event that they actually win. All you wanted was to foment trouble for the Regime. Now you've got a smoking gun with your fingerprints all over it, and problems in the future if it should ever come out. After all, it would be better to own Quma II rather then have it independent and selling to all and sundry. Even if we do get a discount. Perhaps it's too late, and the genies' out of the bottle. Trying to capture the planet after it wins it's freedom could mean you have a tiger by the tail. Perhaps the Kamzak see the same opportunities you do and supply the weapons first. Perhaps they'll supply them to maintain Quma independece from you! All for the same trade concessions, but the Kamzak know that geographically, Quma is too far away to capture militarily, so this is the next best thing.

Of course, having said all that, all players will, at some time or other, decide that giving the Gargal a good beating with conventional forces would be preferable to 'all this sneaking around'. Fine, except that the next meeting of the Galactic Assembly takes place the following year, and you will not receive the trade concessions you were after with such a heavy-handed display.

Think of the rewards, but also be aware that there have to be penalties as well. Real penalties. One of the problems with the genre is that their is little incentive to play any other way then both barrels blazing. If trade and economic censorship took such a heavy toll on the Terran economy that your own position was threatened internally, you would be forced to consider your actions more fully. Cause and effect again. The advantage to this is that it would require the player to actively participate in his/her environment to win the game, or even to just stay in the running, and that would be well worth the effort.

But the best thing about it all is that all this "extra" play has come from two simple requests which your spies have carried out: minerals mining and shipment, and political unrest in the Gargal Regime. If all it does is encourage players to try something different then Horizon would already be a winner, because so few games ever achieve that effect.

[Sim-Mania]

Knowledge is power. So in the end, spies need to provide the player with strategic information about other empires, not just provide the ability to perform industrial sabotage. Hopefully you'll be able to implement some of the features Ravana has described.