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 Post subject: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Hello.

I've been picking up some fights now in Horizon and I find some things frustrating...

My ships "see" enemy ships in adjacent sectors that I don't see while in tactical mode (maybe an indicator (red arrow or something like that) in tactical overview would be helpful to show that there ist more in the vincinity).
The automatic mode only knows one strategy at the moment: attack. Just attack, no matter how the odds are and where it is.
So I find troop transports with virtually no offense weaponry chasing enemy cruisers, even motherships!
Only way to avoid this is to micromanage every step and try to retreat. Because both sides have about the same speed, this goes over multiple turns.
Either I change to auto mode which would result in the transports committing suicide or I can spend an hour or so to manually guide them (and the reinforcements) to save them from their fate until said reinforcements arrive. Setting a course away from the enemy ships is also ignored. They attack.

Back on the galaxy map, I tell the transports to head to the next base. Result: they ignore it and go on "chasing" cruisers which happen to be in the neighborhood.
It's like herding mice with a couple of cats straying around. :( The fact that fleets scatter themselves over multiple sectors while in transit doesn't help a bit. Some ships just travel along where others with the same orders go picking up fights...

When I see the size of a sector, the travelling speed of my ships and the weapon range, I can completly hide 3-4 fleets in the sector without ever getting into mutual support range (not in a reasonable amount of time). Comming for help is quite useless atm until you can say your ships not to attack and try to flee in one direction. Even then, it takes several turns (turns, like in "I have to press the "next turn" button") until the helping fleet comes to weapon range.


My view is that while in combat, the sectors are quite irrelevant. All happens at the same time in different places. My problem with this is that the combat view switches (randomly as it seems) between the sectors where fights take place, so I loose the general view completly. And because the fleets are so scattered when travelling more than 2 sectors at a time, you never know where they will end up.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 am 
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Hi Yarodin,

Welcome ... I'm going to present you with your level 1 badge called ... The Badge Of Combat Frustration :evil: . Hold still because when I pin it on you, you will feel the pain... :shock:

On a serious note ... There is a lot of functionality with ship combat that hasn't been built yet (soon to come). I hoping that when they get to this part of development that we all can share our thought's and wishes before they write something in stone.

Now, have you played with Cloaked Ships? Your comment below makes cloaking some what a pain because , yeah, they don't have a "hold position" or "hold fire" sub-command ....

Quote:
The automatic mode only knows one strategy at the moment: attack. Just attack, no matter how the odds are and where it is.

Hang in there!!! The AI is like a child :arrow: making lots of noise and not being very obedient ... "Stop hitting your sister !!!" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:20 am 
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Ok, I admit I was bit little bit frustrated when I wrote this :oops:
I'm aware that it's a beta, the AI is a baby and there's a lot on the todo list already.
I apologize to the devs, didn't want to blame you.

It was just frustrating seeing those idiot ships frantically commiting suicide no matter what I did.

I didn't try cloaked ships yet, I just discovered cloaking technology last evening and haven't build any ships with it yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:45 am 
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Yarodin wrote:
My ships "see" enemy ships in adjacent sectors that I don't see while in tactical mode (maybe an indicator (red arrow or something like that) in tactical overview would be helpful to show that there ist more in the vincinity).
Hmm, you should be able to see the exact same between tactical and galaxy map since they use the same function, if not something isn't working correctly and if you have a saved game I'd like to see it (please issue a report from the launcher if you do and provide the ship location).

Quote:
The automatic mode only knows one strategy at the moment: attack. Just attack, no matter how the odds are and where it is.
Yes currently they won't retreat, will be adding this and continue to refine the combat AI.

Quote:
Back on the galaxy map, I tell the transports to head to the next base. Result: they ignore it and go on "chasing" cruisers which happen to be in the neighborhood.
What happens is if they are attacked they will defend themselves but when you order a move they won't initiate the attack. How would you expect them to react?

I want to make a distinction between regular orders vs manual control (setting a waypoint). Ships will follow waypoints regardless if they come under fire but a regular move order where the AI is in control will act to defend itself. At least this is how it's working currently. Also Auto-mode uses the AI control and disregards waypoints (but thinking of adding automatic waypoint movement in manual mode).

Quote:
Some ships just travel along where others with the same orders go picking up fights...
Yes, this is noted.

Quote:
My view is that while in combat, the sectors are quite irrelevant. All happens at the same time in different places. My problem with this is that the combat view switches (randomly as it seems) between the sectors where fights take place, so I loose the general view completly. And because the fleets are so scattered when travelling more than 2 sectors at a time, you never know where they will end up.
The way it works is the camera will only show one sector (ships in that sector) and will remain in that sector at all times until all combat is over, then it will switch to the next combat sector. The only exception I see to this is when a taskforce is split, this could be what's causing the issue if not let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Yarodin wrote:
Ok, I admit I was bit little bit frustrated when I wrote this :oops:
I'm aware that it's a beta, the AI is a baby and there's a lot on the todo list already.
I apologize to the devs, didn't want to blame you.
It was just frustrating seeing those idiot ships frantically commiting suicide no matter what I did.
I didn't try cloaked ships yet, I just discovered cloaking technology last evening and haven't build any ships with it yet.

Believe me, I feel your pain and frustration ... I awarded myself that badge months ago!

Have fun with cloaked ships ... Remember, the cloak effect basically lowers the range that hostile ships can see you, so you can get in closer (under manual movement) before launching the attack! Don't expect any auto stuff to play out fairly and I've come to enjoy the micro management of cloaked ships in this regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:
Yarodin wrote:
My ships "see" enemy ships in adjacent sectors that I don't see while in tactical mode (maybe an indicator (red arrow or something like that) in tactical overview would be helpful to show that there ist more in the vincinity).
Hmm, you should be able to see the exact same between tactical and galaxy map since they use the same function, if not something isn't working correctly and if you have a saved game I'd like to see it (please issue a report from the launcher if you do and provide the ship location).

I think the reason you see ships in other sectors is because the "scanner range" of one ship bleeds into the adjacent sector(s). If you have one ship in the corner of a sector then it will see ships in the adjacent 3 sectors ... Sound about right?

The problem is that we don't have the big picture that shows us which direction to proceed in to combat that force (assuming we're in sector battle mode). The only work around I found was to let auto combat occur for a few rounds to let the ships point themselves towards the threat and then I jump when I get the full picture as to what's going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:32 pm 
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CellNav wrote:
Zaimat wrote:
Yarodin wrote:
My ships "see" enemy ships in adjacent sectors that I don't see while in tactical mode (maybe an indicator (red arrow or something like that) in tactical overview would be helpful to show that there ist more in the vincinity).
Hmm, you should be able to see the exact same between tactical and galaxy map since they use the same function, if not something isn't working correctly and if you have a saved game I'd like to see it (please issue a report from the launcher if you do and provide the ship location).

I think the reason you see ships in other sectors is because the "scanner range" of one ship bleeds into the adjacent sector(s). If you have one ship in the corner of a sector then it will see ships in the adjacent 3 sectors ... Sound about right?

The problem is that we don't have the big picture that shows us which direction to proceed in to combat that force (assuming we're in sector battle mode). The only work around I found was to let auto combat occur for a few rounds to let the ships point themselves towards the threat and then I jump when I get the full picture as to what's going on.


That sounds about right. I have one sector before me, the ships run towards another sector (where the enemy cruisers are) and I see them only by scrolling manually to the adjacent sectors (which is cumbersome, because you can't jump into an adjacent sector directly). On the galaxy map, I see that there are enemy forces in the neighbourhood. But during combat phase, I can't swich back to the global map (or I don't know how) to take a look.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:

Quote:
Back on the galaxy map, I tell the transports to head to the next base. Result: they ignore it and go on "chasing" cruisers which happen to be in the neighborhood.
What happens is if they are attacked they will defend themselves but when you order a move they won't initiate the attack. How would you expect them to react?

I'd expect them to do nothing and let me decide. When combat screen opens, they already fired the first shot in defense (or so I observed it, I'm not 100% sure of that). So, when they are under attack, let the player decide what to do. Either I counter attack and defend myself or I try to retreat and continue my voyage (if I'm fast enough.) Or try to reach a nearby fleet of my own capable of defeating the enemy vessels.

Zaimat wrote:
I want to make a distinction between regular orders vs manual control (setting a waypoint). Ships will follow waypoints regardless if they come under fire but a regular move order where the AI is in control will act to defend itself. At least this is how it's working currently. Also Auto-mode uses the AI control and disregards waypoints (but thinking of adding automatic waypoint movement in manual mode).

For me, a move order is nothing but a waypoint on a greater scale. So if under attack, I want be able to decide a) fight back, b) maintain old course and try to escape, c) set a new course e.g. to reach a helping fleet or the next colony with defenses.

Quote:
My view is that while in combat, the sectors are quite irrelevant. All happens at the same time in different places. My problem with this is that the combat view switches (randomly as it seems) between the sectors where fights take place, so I loose the general view completly. And because the fleets are so scattered when travelling more than 2 sectors at a time, you never know where they will end up.
Zaimat wrote:
The way it works is the camera will only show one sector (ships in that sector) and will remain in that sector at all times until all combat is over, then it will switch to the next combat sector. The only exception I see to this is when a taskforce is split, this could be what's causing the issue if not let me know.
I think that was the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Another issue: Why is it that you can only flight first, then shoot? After shooting, there's no movement possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat in Beta 4.50
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Yarodin wrote:
Another issue: Why is it that you can only flight first, then shoot? After shooting, there's no movement possible.


If you fire then want to move you still can, once you fire it puts you into target mode (where you pick who to shoot) to remove this after you shoot go down and hit the target button and you should be able to move again.

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