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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Lithari wrote:
We could ask for a treaty or something the same way. :)
Yes and no..

Treaties and pacts are a little more complex since they require negotiating and are usually done at the highest levels.

I'll give an example: Even if you have alien ambassadors on Earth, they don't usually have full authority and would need to get the blessing of their government. So without secure communications at the very least they have to return home to check and then back to sign off on it.

It complicates in terms of game play to add a system that would handle this so for now we think we have a good trade-off between fun and realism.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:04 pm 
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sad, but true.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:42 am 
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Well, declaring war does not need a hundreds of pages of legal documentation and hard negotiation of terms as any treaty would. :wink:


I like the changed made, will try a new game soon and test these out.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:05 am 
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Its just, I like to deserve the war declaration...that's all....not just because I was unlucky to be placed within 2 squares of another homeworld.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:28 am 
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The system definitely needs tweaking. Starting within their bubble should not be the same as deliberately plunking a colony on their doorstep after you got a warning. I also imagine since it is the early game, you don't have ties with them, so there is no positive to offset the negative. So usually you can mend the fence, but in your case you got nothing to do it with.

However, AI coding is difficult, and a long process. One of my friends describes it to me as 'layering'. You basically built upon the code in layers. We got the current layer, now it needs to get tweaked before the next layer is applied. As this goes on, the AI will behave oddly at times. It will usually improve, but sometimes might take a small step back. This time, I consider it a definite step forward (it declares wars, builds proper defensive fleets (at least around its homeworld), and is harder to seduce than before). It just needs more tweaking and 'layering' so that it doesn't fly off the handle like it did in your game.

Either case, this is still an alpha (not even beta)... so I fully expect the AI to be derp-tastic at times. So we should continue to inform the devs about odd behaviours from the AI.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:38 am 
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Quick update on the state of the AI:

1) I was able to recreate Lithari's scenario several times. I actually got 3 races get stuck to me that closely on a Medium map no less (felt as crowded as a small one) in one of them. Just adding that if it is intended or if there needs to be better opponent placement. Depending on what the race is and how quickly you can 'com' them, determines if you can mend the fence or not. In two cases I was able to create treaties with the neighbor and prevent the war, and in one it was impossible and I got a war even before I made 'formal' contact. In the last one, I was able to make contact (but it was with one of 'those' aliens), and it devolved into an early war.

2) Nice! It actually seems to form alliances with other AIs, start wars, impose embargos, ask you to do the same or break your alliances, it builds real defense fleets and I have seen the first offensive fleets move out (these are still a little ineffective, but the AI can defend though). Definitely improving and growing.

One suggestion, the AI should form TF, at the moment each ship is its own TF and it causes the Galaxy View of the Sector to become cluttered as you get a long row of ships when you click on a sector.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:24 am 
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The only difference between a 'quit the game and start again' and a 'great game' is if I can talk to them when I encounter them, if not, war is imminent, if I can, I can get the peace going.....in the end, its all about the interstellar communication technology.

I also think they should have fuel cell techs instead of just cargo space for fuel, I mean, the moment I started, I could technically send my ship across the galaxy, I think it shouldn't be possible to do that until at the end, when you have researched the best fuel cell tech or something.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:19 am 
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Lithari wrote:

[...] I think there should be an option for non-mission based classic games to have all races start with the same tech, same single homeworld as the player, only further away, so some expanding and more advanced tech is required to make contact.


Is that not an option that we already have, when we select the "classic" form of game, with no missions ?

Question for a developer :

When we select the "classic" game-mode, do all the races start at an equivalent (if not identical) development level : basic tech level + one single planet + no ships + no upgraded buildings -- or are some (if not all) A.I. races granted starting privileges ?


Last edited by CyberMage on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:44 pm 
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CyberMage wrote:
Lithari wrote:

[...] I think there should be an option for non-mission based classic games to have all races start with the same tech, same single homeworld as the player, only further away, so some expanding and more advanced tech is required to make contact.


Is that not an option that we already have, when we select the "classic" form of game, with no missions ?

Question for a developer :

We we select the "classic" game-mode, do all the races start at an equivalent (if not identical) development level : basic tech level + one single planet + no ships + no upgraded buildings -- or are some (if not all) A.I. races granted starting privileges ?


Well, I have seen alien ships within 5 turns of the start of the game that have particle cannons, bio-energy armor and so on, some have even have more advanced engines and power generators, which pretty made my shielded ships useless to me, since the enemy had particle cannons, which from level 5, made shields useless.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Right now Classic/Standard scenario both working the same way with regards to starting level (not intended, we will change this). All races start at the same level for technology (level 1) but each race has different starting techs.

So even though they start with different weapons none should have it at level 5 from the start. Particle beams do get shield piercing special after Level 5.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Wouldn't it just be easier to just have them start with the same tech? I would have thought it would be easier.

also, I just wiped out those rock people, weren't they like the first race ever to exist, that created the race that created probe that arrives in Sol at the start of the game? (with missions enabled) wouldn't they be like uber powerful?

You know, later on, they could be used as an uber race that periodically tests the lower races of their advancement in technology by causing attacks to happen that ultimately don't affect relationships with the other lower races, just something to be cool, like the Antarans on MoO2.

Its just a thought, it would make more sense that way, since they are like the vorlons on B5, they are uber-powerful, but do not attack the lower races like an AI would do in a video game, well not until certain situations are met.

Also, maybe you could make boarding enemy ships as another means of gaining unknown technology or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:52 pm 
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they're introduced as immaterial beings of light, and found as giant rock people with very tiny populations on metallic worlds

which are redicliously easy to bomb =)

i squished them in my first game and didnt even realize (really missing the moo2 flags now that i played it a few times the other day =) those highlght colors look the same to me sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Fairin wrote:
they're introduced as immaterial beings of light, and found as giant rock people with very tiny populations on metallic worlds

which are redicliously easy to bomb =)

i squished them in my first game and didnt even realize (really missing the moo2 flags now that i played it a few times the other day =) those highlght colors look the same to me sometimes.


Actually, my last game, they were on a Huge Volcanic World that had a max population of 15B, the cool thing is, if you manage to invade and win, you can keep the colony, even though you lack the tech to colonize them, something that needs to be sorted out.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Lithari wrote:
Actually, my last game, they were on a Huge Volcanic World that had a max population of 15B, the cool thing is, if you manage to invade and win, you can keep the colony, even though you lack the tech to colonize them, something that needs to be sorted out.
While you can't colonize or live on hostile planets (without terraforming), as long as you don't eliminate the native race you can still control the planet. That part is working as intended.

Fairin wrote:
(really missing the moo2 flags now that i played it a few times the other day =) those highlght colors look the same to me sometimes.
The territory map indicator (striped square) colors?

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:
Lithari wrote:
Actually, my last game, they were on a Huge Volcanic World that had a max population of 15B, the cool thing is, if you manage to invade and win, you can keep the colony, even though you lack the tech to colonize them, something that needs to be sorted out.
While you can't colonize or live on hostile planets (without terraforming), as long as you don't eliminate the native race you can still control the planet. That part is working as intended.

Fairin wrote:
(really missing the moo2 flags now that i played it a few times the other day =) those highlght colors look the same to me sometimes.
The territory map indicator (striped square) colors?


Yeah, I notice them, but they only show up on their systems, no where else to indicate its their territory.

Maybe you could implement something like what Civ 5 has, a colour coded sphere of influence....that is easy to see and it spans the full territory of the empire, that way, we know where not to go to avoid the AI having a hissy fit.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Lithari wrote:
Zaimat wrote:
Lithari wrote:
Actually, my last game, they were on a Huge Volcanic World that had a max population of 15B, the cool thing is, if you manage to invade and win, you can keep the colony, even though you lack the tech to colonize them, something that needs to be sorted out.
While you can't colonize or live on hostile planets (without terraforming), as long as you don't eliminate the native race you can still control the planet. That part is working as intended.

Fairin wrote:
(really missing the moo2 flags now that i played it a few times the other day =) those highlght colors look the same to me sometimes.
The territory map indicator (striped square) colors?


Yeah, I notice them, but they only show up on their systems, no where else to indicate its their territory.

Maybe you could implement something like what Civ 5 has, a colour coded sphere of influence....that is easy to see and it spans the full territory of the empire, that way, we know where not to go to avoid the AI having a hissy fit.


I agree with this. It would be really nice to see a kinda Influence area around systems. Even if it was nothing more then an indicator of how big an alien empire is.

However I think it would be really cool if they did something akin to what Galactic Civ did with having an influance radius have meaning and allow you to "Peacefully" Take over a system. I believe it also gave you an idea of where not to fly for fear of ticking of that empire for flying through space they considered theirs.

Even though open space may have little meaning in Horizon in its current state I think having a system radiate its color indicator on the map out a sector or two would really help visualize how big empires are.

Eve a MMORPG in space does this with its player made maps even though it doesn't really mean anything but helps you better understand who owns what in the game.

Example:

Your space maps kinda look like this when you are trying to find out who lives where: http://www.eveonlinereview.com/wp-conte ... ide-on.png

I think it would be cooler visually and easier to understand if it looked like this: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/ ... luence.png

I also find it hard to understand who is what color. Having a flag for each race that could be used on the map and in diplo interactions might be helpful.

Examples of 4x games that use radius like influence indicators, some use it for more then just a simple indicator:

Endless Space: http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/art ... 618208.jpg

Civ 5: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/u ... %20ars.jpg

Galactic Civ 2: http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article ... 02-000.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:38 am 
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Lithari wrote:

Maybe you could implement something like what Civ 5 has, a colour coded sphere of influence....that is easy to see and it spans the full territory of the empire, that way, we know where not to go to avoid the AI having a hissy fit.


Yes : I totally support this -- we need a colour-coded sphere of influence.

Endless goes a major step further :

You may not colonize planets within another empire's sphere of influence -- unless you are at war. I prefer that.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:07 pm 
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CyberMage wrote:
Lithari wrote:

Maybe you could implement something like what Civ 5 has, a colour coded sphere of influence....that is easy to see and it spans the full territory of the empire, that way, we know where not to go to avoid the AI having a hissy fit.


Yes : I totally support this -- we need a colour-coded sphere of influence.

Endless goes a major step further :

You may not colonize planets within another empire's sphere of influence -- unless you are at war. I prefer that.


Right now, I prefer to just know where not to tread. :-)


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