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 Post subject: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:53 am 
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6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31

CHANGELOG

Fixes:
* Load/Save fixed on systems where the windows user profile name contained dots or other special characters
* Ship info panel on the galaxy map will now properly hide itself when setting a move vector

Changes:

* Added a new order: Survey System. It streamlines sending a task force to other stars and surveying the whole system (instead of ordering a move first then a survey)
* Diplomacy AI is now slightly less accommodating especially on important treaties
* Alliance treaty base chance reduced
* AI will now be aware of another race encroaching on their territory (expanding close to their borders) and affect tolerance
* Tolerance changes will be more frequent if relations neutral
* In tutorial mode, the player will now begin with Level 2 Industry Building (Factories) to build things faster and make the start easier

Support:

* Optional: Borderless Window flag added (Add to horizon.ini (in My documents/horizongame/) -> Preference_BorderlessWindowed=TRUE

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:24 am 
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I was wondering what happened to those notes. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:41 am 
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I'll try to post them when the patches go live.. It's just been pretty hectic ;)
I posted the previous changelog as well.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Oh, its understandable, wasn't complaining or anything, though the diplomacy, while the alliance change was understandable, the races are not being more hostile for no reason at all.

I would suggest some form of indication of territory, just in case I am violating their territory, cause I am not sure if its your recent patch or if my supply ship and 4-5 scouts surveying systems is causing it, I started doing that after the patch went live.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Lithari wrote:
the races are not being more hostile for no reason at all.

I would suggest some form of indication of territory, just in case I am violating their territory, cause I am not sure if its your recent patch or if my supply ship and 4-5 scouts surveying systems is causing it, I started doing that after the patch went live.


Did you mean they *are* being more hostile?

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Well, the relationship goes down pretty quickly, they don't outright attack right away, but they do eventually and I could stay in my home system and it still goes down, maybe its just that they don't like me?


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:

Borderless Window flag added (Add to horizon.ini (in My documents/horizongame/) -> Preference_BorderlessWindowed=TRUE


Thank you very much for adding that option.

I prefer to play my games inside big windows on my 26-inch monitor, which has a native rez of 1920x1200. Removing the window's borders makes the perception experience more immersive ... especially since my desktop's wallpaper is a galaxy : with the borders removed, your own ''galaxy'' seems to blend in with some of the stars which are still visible on the parts of my desktop that are not covered by the game's window.

It is a nice touch which I appreciate, as I am also very impressed that you work hard in order to very regularly update our alpha builds.

Thanks a lot -- from a fellow Canadian (Longueuil, Quebec)


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:57 pm 
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bloody cheer borderless windowed mode

hostile aliens. send a ship to explore their system without a free travel agreement they WILL attack it, and if you blow up their ships they declare war on you for your hostile actions of blowing up their ships! =)

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Fairin wrote:
bloody cheer borderless windowed mode

hostile aliens. send a ship to explore their system without a free travel agreement they WILL attack it, and if you blow up their ships they declare war on you for your hostile actions of blowing up their ships! =)


That's a good thing, but I personally don't do anything wrong, I never enter their systems and they still go hostile and eventually end up shooting at me and I am not sure why they would shoot at me for entering their systems, since they enter mine and never freaking leave.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Did you happen to colonize a planet within ~3x3 sectors of one of their systems? The AI will feel you encroaching on them and that could lead to tolerance going hostile.

If you tresspass in their system you may take a very small tolerance hit unless you stay there a while or with many ships.

We will gathering all the feedback and play test more ourselves for a couple days then will make adjustments after the weekend. The feedback has been great, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:
Did you happen to colonize a planet within ~3x3 sectors of one of their systems? The AI will feel you encroaching on them and that could lead to tolerance going hostile.

If you tresspass in their system you may take a very small tolerance hit unless you stay there a while or with many ships.

We will gathering all the feedback and play test more ourselves for a couple days then will make adjustments after the weekend. The feedback has been great, thanks!


This situation would be easily known by me, if there were indications of territory, maybe the starbases can put a sphere of influence that spans into the next sector in all directions, having more then 1 starbase per system wouldn't improve the effect, this way, you can put a feature into place, that stops any ship of another empire entering your territory without the appropriate treaties.

Also, if 3x3, you mean the small square thingys in the galaxy, I have had several races meet me within 2 turns, because one of their colonies, was within 2x2 squares of my home system, another reason why I think there should be an option for non-mission based classic games to have all races start with the same tech, same single homeworld as the player, only further away, so some expanding and more advanced tech is required to make contact.

In the end, it caused that race to hate me and to cause it to fire on me in my home system, saying, I am trespassing, when I have no ships, though I have a ship building to colonize mars....so you see my problem? :)


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:20 pm 
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I am going start a new game, and play around with the AI honk off meter. I started a game after the patch came live and I don't have problems with befriending half the galaxy (I confess I am diplo-heavy player, I am the galactic nice guy that likes having a trade economy). See how a new game will fair.

I was able to smooth things over with most of the races I honked off. Honestly I like the more temperamental AI, just well it should only get annoyed if there cause to be annoyed. Are the behaviours in? I can swear Passive races tend to bluff a lot: "stop that", I still do it, then give them a present, and then they are like BFF for life. Then you get the Kamzeks (sp?) who I park one colony too close to them and it is the Earth-Minbari War all over again.

If that's the case I like that, I think different races should have different reactions, I know the Tanik don't even like it when you enter one of their systems with a scout. They feel like isolationists.

Questions, observations, and ideas:

Question, do Military outposts versus full colonies incur different tolerance hits? Also, if you do plunk down a colony but leave it undefended, does that incur less than if you have a defense fleet on it (ergo, having a war fleet parked on their borders)? Also is there effect on the type of planet you make a claim on? Sticking a Listening post on a Barren world will be less offensive than sticking a full colony on that prime Terran planet (assumption, another Terran species)?

I think it would good if there was difference between each of these. A listing post on a crap world so you can have diplomacy with them (com range) is less offensive than claiming that prime real-estate they were eyeing themselves next to their home world. Also, having a 'defense fleet' next to the border with the excuse it's over your own planet is not an excuse.

Lastly, I haven't seen the AI ally with themselves or go to war with each other. Maybe it was just my last game. Even if the AI knows how to behave, I imagine some races will still end up honking off their neighbors.

I do agree, an overlay you can toggle to see a 'sphere of influence' would be nice. Systems are marked and counting squares is not hard, but I always believed in visuals over numbers or head crunching when it came to displaying information like this. Numbers when it is about numbers (such as tech and economy). But for this, spheres of influence overlay would be nice.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Well, just now, I was playing a full on peaceful game, the only defences I build is missile bases, marines and a single starbase in each system...just 1 starbase per system for restocking the colonyship after using the pod.

Then I encounter the aliens, one after the other, its like they are lining up to say hello, even though their colonies are like too far away to reach in a ship with 0/0 supplies and they stay there, probably for that reason and their relationship with me, just gets worse and worse, to the point of them firing at me and I either shoot back or let the AI do it, then bam, war is declared and I can't ask for peace or offer gifts, because I can't talk to them, but they can talk to me.

The only real thing I can think of, is the combination of the recent patch with my scouting fleet, 4-5 scouts with a supply ship to do surveys of the systems they explore, if its that, then I guess I will have to just colonize planets blindly and hope I don't lose out on anything, but I am thinking that they need to make it, if its within a square of a colony, then they get miffed, but I could stay within my homeworld for like 20+ turns doing stuff and a race comes along, moaning that I am trespassing on their territory and its about 10 or so turns later that they shoot at me after the relations with their race gets worse.

The only other possible scenario is that they just complain regardless, no matter where I go, they have a hissy fit and declare war after they attack me, I mean I love the game and all and if I do something bad, I deserve them to be miffed, but when I am just sitting in my own home system, they moan, they moan at me for being in their system and eventually fire on my colonies, yet they refuse to leave my system......something is wrong here.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Maybe you started to close to one of their worlds, so you automatically got hit with over-expansionism from the start. I was once 4 squares from the Tanik homeworld and had a Bartig colony right next to me. Like 1 square away. Maybe you had a similar starting situation which causes the runaway effect that they hate you for just starting the game.

This leads me back to my earlier suggestions, having different reactions based on just what the world is. Sticking a listening post on the edge of your com range so that you can do diplomacy with them... only a minor annoyance (you are still encroaching). Though there needs to be some leeway, since you won't always find a planet on the edge, you might have to stick the 'beacon' pretty close. But if the listening post is built on a 'useless to them planet' it should be less aggravating especially if you never upgrade it to a colony and build nothing there (and once positive relations have been established, you can maybe stick a barrack on it to prevent it from getting plucked).

Them dropping a colony after you did, also shouldn't be as bad, technically they are "over-expanding". Still annoy them you're already there, but less bad then if you went at them.

Starting with a colony near your home world, should also be less grave. Sure some tensions but not OMG I hate you now. Though it does create the problem that your first colony will be too close no matter what unless you can grab one ways away. Still, this just supports different tolerance hits depending on the circumstances.

I like that they warn you, but there should be room to recover after a warning. So far it seems like you usually can, but it seems depending on some circumstances, you can't. Again, I am going to play around with this, see how sensitive and what tips off the AI and what doesn't. Also test how hard it is to mend fences. Back to testing the game! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Well, I would try mending the fences if I was within communication range of them and guess what, my homeworld is 2 squares from Kuntari or something's homeworld from the get go, still outside of communication capabilities, but answer me this, if I am not within communication range, how can I still declare war on them?? lol


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:19 pm 
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The A.I is not being smart about exploring yet as you noted but it is not breaking the rules by exploring beyond it's supply range just not very efficient. Same thing with staying in your system it's not intended, the A.I. isn't handling it properly if they stay there forever.

They should not be able to talk with you if they are not in com range (if you can't talk to them). The exception being the first contact message. It's a bug if they keep talking to you when you can't initiate 'open com' in diplomacy. We will keep an eye on this.

For the rest, we need a little more time to test so we get a better feel for it. Also let's keep in mind that A.I. changes won't always feel right on their own until other pieces are added. So it's going to be a bumpy ride. hold on tight! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Well, how the hell do I declare war on someone outside of my communication range?? cause I can't talk to do treaties or beg them not to be miffed with me :P the only option is declare war.

Well, it is an alpha, so it is expected for there to be problems, not used to alphas, its always been just open betas.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:
For the rest, we need a little more time to test so we get a better feel for it. Also let's keep in mind that A.I. changes won't always feel right on their own until other pieces are added. So it's going to be a bumpy ride. hold on tight! :mrgreen:

Oh I know... just scripting for a tactics game a la Final Fantasy Tactics (or Shining Force, sorry drawing blanks on PC titles of that genre) is a nightmare. I can only fathom the AI of a 4X game.

I actually like this phase, I love watching AI do funny things as it grows and slowly matures. Like a wayward child, and the satisfying rewarding feeling when it finally behaves properly. So I guess feedback is important, but I do get... we are going to see blooper worthy AI behaviour before the game is done. Hopefully, it's to get most of them out of the way before release *whispers*andnothavethereleaseversionofyourexpansionhaveaschizoaithatcannotmakeupitsmind*whisper*. Speaking of no one in particular *whistles innocently*.

Either case I actually have hope for the AI of this game, so far it seems sane enough, even if still toddler-ish in development.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Lithari wrote:
Well, how the hell do I declare war on someone outside of my communication range?? cause I can't talk to do treaties or beg them not to be miffed with me :P the only option is declare war.


We have taken the view that you shouldn't need interstellar communications to declare war. The other race will find out since there are plenty of ways for the message to get out to them including aliens/tourists/traders/media/etc in your territory who will deliver the news to the other race.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 July 2013 - Alpha v0.0.2.31
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Zaimat wrote:
Lithari wrote:
Well, how the hell do I declare war on someone outside of my communication range?? cause I can't talk to do treaties or beg them not to be miffed with me :P the only option is declare war.


We have taken the view that you shouldn't need interstellar communications to declare war. The other race will find out since there are plenty of ways for the message to get out to them including aliens/tourists/traders/media/etc in your territory who will deliver the news to the other race.


We could ask for a treaty or something the same way. :)


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