"War is Peace." -- Orwell







It is currently Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:00 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 


 Post subject: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:58 pm 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
In the next few days we will have a new test version of Horizon in a separate test branch. We would like the help of a small number of players to help give us some preliminary feedback on the changes we are making of which there will be many in a very short span.

If you would like to participate, please let me know asap by using the large contact button at the top. And I will respond back to you.

We will be limiting this test version access (for a few weeks) but discussion will be open to all. Thanks!

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:32 pm 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
8/31/2013
Test version 4.42

Playtest feedback focus:
1. AI challenge/difficuly level: easy/good/hard?
2. Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game
3. Population growth rate : too low or about right?
4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)

Please note with any feedback: if game is Standard or classic scenario mode, and the build version for later versions. Sending us your advanced/late saved games via the report issue link on the launcher is also helpful.

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:54 pm 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 69
Offline
v4.42
Standard game, missions tutorial enabled. (rare habitable planets)

Economy is stagnant, much much more difficult to just buy your way to victory

population growth is excessively stagnant, mars never really blossomed, my large terran never produced research (really)

standard civ's tech's completely out class (getting real tired of my motherships heavy weapons getting blown off by a single shot)

aggressive AI blockaded my entire empire then proceeded to lay waste to my fleet as it returned a single scout ship could nearly 1 shot one of my corvettes with their rank 6 crystal weapons >< have fun with the save, its a good fight. dont forget to launch the OP fighters from the mothership.

research stagnant, lengthened game. felt heavily penalized compared to the AI in standard gameplay

in one of my systems (dubbed hoth) barbeks ninja'd it from me with some troop transport (no defenders zomg! im not defending an ice planet early game) then offerd me a 5% peace treaty the next turn before my fleet arrived (which of course i denied and they annilhiated my mothership by blowing all its weapons off -.-, stupid auto combat following a ship making it turn in place...)

"mid" game. nearly every planet surveyed (about 80%?) got 3 colonies going, working on secureing another terran harkans declare war on me, pop off my scouts and my colonyship near their space, i take back hoth (by bombing it after looseing the invasion) send my fleet to their homeworld. harkan invaded both my systems and blocaded the planets rendering my economy inert. poping the ships i build to defend in generally a single shot. i ordered my fleet to return form their invasion (about 14 ships mixed no scouts) at -70bc they arrived to defend earth which they quickly get overwhelmed by the technical superiority of the harkan my ships shoot for 5 dmg. their scouts shoot for 42 =) they had 4 crusiers 1 mothership and some assortment of scouts / bombers, they never invaded earth just said no more trading for you!.

combat was clearly one sided as earth was the only planet producing research (and not much at that)

Summary, economy is much better, things are cheaper but money is harder to get. shipyards took 63 turns to build? daaamn!, didnt get to space stations in the first run. Standard needs an established " council " or UN to defend the weaker civilizations. diplomacy might have aided me very much. but i like to go it alone.

found the cat btw =) niice little robot.. not a drakitty tho =(

ending additions, found pieces of the hammer and whatnot before even encountering the kuntari

also according to the news i had the most population even though im the youngest civ? guess its for balancing their economy too... but still.

last edit addition, confirmed with my brother who sits beside me and watches, it might just be us. or the monitor on my laptop. but the Lezgoon, the Kamzaks and the Gargals. all use the same color as their "flag" as it were.
ex humans = green, barbeks = red Har'kan = purple, lez/kam/gargals = grey/brownishgrey


Playtest feedback focus:
1. AI challenge/difficuly level: easy/good/hard? - Challange? getting much much better, tech differences in standard set it too high for "me"
2. Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game Early Game felt too easy to max out earth and start branching out. had a good start would like more building options ala moo2, but for now things felt a little "too" cheap for their initial cost, maybe the last rank could be at 10bc. what would really set it above and beyond is show you the benefits in plain numbers (build this and the colony will generate x more money! or x more production!
3. Population growth rate : too low or about right? the population was growing? *blinks* i must have missed it. unrealistically low, would like to compare earths population growth form 1980 to 2010, 4 to 7 billion.
4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)OVERWHELMING YES! precicely what i expected it to do when i clicked on a system.

_________________
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:03 pm 
Contributor
Explorer
Explorer
Contributor
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:17 am
Posts: 16
Offline
v4.42 Standard game, Default settings + missions enabled.

Early game economy feels much better and more realistic, it is now much harder to generate mass capital. Build times on shipyards and space stations are too long. At turn 135 I currently have 10 colonies and, if I remember correctly, I could not have built a station in that amount of time. This lead to me building colony ships and either using them as scouts or scrapping them immediately after colonization to save cash. The prohibitive build time on stations invalidates one of their primary functions...not a good thing. The mid game economy blossomed for me and I am now over 1t credits. Given that I am only maintaining minimal fleets due to a state of galactic peace, I may be making too much money.

I have had a much more sedate experience with this build than Fairin. I currently have 2 alliances and am at war with nobody. Only two races (I believe) are currently hostile towards me. That being said the AI for the races are acting and reacting to me in fairly different manners...a good thing. Some AI's will let me survey their systems without complaint...others will shoot my scouts down on sight. However, I do feel that intruding on a race's system should at least prompt a dialogue with the involved race...open border negotiations anyone? My experience with the game, both open and closed builds, is that the AI has a difficult time finding reasons to go to war. This is why in an earlier post I suggested the implementation of certain strategic resources that are necessary to build and/or utilize certain technologies.

Population growth is a bit on the low side...but I did not find it uncomfortably so. That being said, I am still largely in the same boat as Fairin...Earth is my only significant research world, though I have at least two or three others that make at least a notable contribution. To be fair, I didn't exactly hit the jackpot as far as good colonizable planets are concerned.


Focus Items:

1. AI...Differentiated race AI is looking good. AI is either too passive or I am too damned charming. :wink: No comment on comparative tech levels as I have not had the opportunity to get curbstomped by an AI race.

2. Economy: Early game feels much better, but mid-game may still produce too much cash. I am not sure enough research is being produced outside of Earth...but I reserve judgement until I actually get to witness the technology gap between the AI and myself.

3. Population growth: Perhaps a bit too low...i will update this after I have a longer experience. Since the slow growth is a direct contributor to my lack of research I am inclined to believe this needs a boost.

4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: I love this...that is an overwhelming yes...keep it this way.


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:11 pm 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
Great feedback, this is exactly what we need to find a good balance.

The AI aggressiveness (militarily) adjusts to the player dynamically during the game. If you are weak and play nice, you are less likely to get picked on by aggressive races.

Also if you are far from hostile races (keep good relations with neighbors) you will have an easier time early on.

In the live version, most of the expenses was colony maintenance, in the test version it's ship maintenance, orbitals and defenses. So if you don't have many of that you will accumulate money very easily albeit at a much slower rate then before.

Fairin wrote:
stupid auto combat following a ship making it turn in place
Can you elaborate on this?

Fairin wrote:
also according to the news i had the most population even though im the youngest civ? guess its for balancing their economy too... but still.
It just depends on their population growth rates and their situation. The economy works the same way for all.

Fairin wrote:
the Lezgoon, the Kamzaks and the Gargals. all use the same color as their "flag" as it were
I'm assuming when you are looking at the Galaxy Map? Zoomed out or even zoomed in?

Quote:
Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel
fyi: there are many small glitches with it currently but we wanted to get your initial feedback before putting in extra work to fix it.

I'll respond more later on the other specific points raised. Don't want to influence feedback from playtests.

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:18 pm 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 69
Offline
Quote:
Fairin wrote:
stupid auto combat following a ship making it turn in place
Can you elaborate on this?


in auto combat your ship will turn to face an enemy, if their target "flies past them" they turn to face it to shoot it (which somehow the combat started in auto combat so i missed the first turn or 3 resulting in my mothership getting its, left front and half the right side weapons get blown off) resulting in my new designs. which the ai should incorporate for hardmode, corvettes and crusier-destoryers and mothership carriers >:)
Quote:
Fairin wrote:
the Lezgoon, the Kamzaks and the Gargals. all use the same color as their "flag" as it were
I'm assuming when you are looking at the Galaxy Map? Zoomed out or even zoomed in?


to me and my brother who i asked his opinion on. They are all *nearly* equal shades of grey now matter how much we look at it.

Quote:
Quote:
Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel
fyi: there are many small glitches with it currently but we wanted to get your initial feedback before putting in extra work to fix it.
haven't encountered a glitch yet, even it auto cycles through 4 taskforces gracefully just like i would have done =) its fantastic

_________________
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:45 am 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
Contributor
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:50 am
Posts: 98
Offline
Default settings, Normal with Missions disabled though.

Playtest feedback focus:
1. AI challenge/difficuly level: easy/good/hard?
So far much better but as mentioned the tech curve took a nose dive. Which seriously did increase the challenge. Definitely an improvement, hard to say if it is too much (or even too little) without some more playtime. Definitely need to consider who you start agonizing and when to be bold (and when to play nice and conceded to), like it much better.

2. Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game?
Much better, as noted you can still roll in cash if you keep military maintenance low, but it seems appropriate (the military is what should eat your budget). But even then it is much better than before. I find I want to buy things to finish quickly but can't do it all the time. Does feel more gradual.

3. Population growth rate : too low or about right?
I do think it is too low. I suspect the sweet spot to be closer to what it is now then what it was before (before it was insanely fast). However, the current rate is very punishing and probably should be higher, especially because of its impact on tech. As the others said, only Earth was really producing research in my game.

4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)
Oh god yes. Definitely love this, keep it.

I feel that research should be only partially based on population, like population gives a boost (or penalty if too small), but the tier of the research building should have a larger impact (and as such any planet bonus as well) on the final research output. I am aware this will make colonizing worlds for research only tempting, but will be expensive in colony maintenance (and expansionistic to other races), so you will still need to be smart about where you colonise.

This way science won't be too tied to the gowth rate being too fast or too slow causing problems with research (I am aware I don't know the entire mechanics behind the scene so my suggestion might be seriously off, but it is just an idea to consider).

Definitely will have more feedback for later as I get more experience with this build.


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:40 am 
Vanguard
Voyager
Voyager
Vanguard
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:50 pm
Posts: 8
Offline
v4.42, Default galaxy, classic mode, no missions, no tutorial.

Note: This data is not from a complete game, currently year ~2350 so solidly mid-game. I'm pushing for a military victory so I can get a feeling for the AI's end game combat abilities.

Loving this update to death thus far. The economy changes actually force you to focus your research if you want anything really meaningful to get done.

Focus points:

1) AI challenge/difficulty level.

Solid thus far. I haven't completed my campaign so I can't vouch for any end game battles but it appears that the AI is more then capable of annihilating themselves, as two races died before I ever made contact with them, this aggression is a plus (for the aggressive races that is).

After starting on a level playing field with Classic mode this is the tech score graph ~100 years later
http://i.imgur.com/oHpRjWr.png
You can clearly see several of the races pulling ahead, though some of that can likely be attributed to archeological finds. Another 100 years though...
http://i.imgur.com/FGthHBj.png
An actual tech gap does seem to be appearing.

The AI also seems to be able to quite effectively manage their economy, as well as field reasonable defense forces even when they are significantly weaker then other races.

2) Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game?

At first I was terrified. With the new population growth settings my previous methods of gathering cash (industry, so much industry) were now...well really, really crappy. I used to be able to drop a colony on a medium terran with abundant resources and expect a few BC profit within a decade or so. No longer, since it took more then a century for Earth to produce 21 mc from its 2nd level factories.

Then I discovered the new maintenance costs, and everything became a breeze. I waited almost 150 years before I built my first starbase, when I could have done it in the first 50 without a serious downside. Only 200mc? Seriously? Ok, so I checked my other costs, built up an entire world just to see if it would bankrupt me like I expected, but no. Max level worlds that cost almost nothing!

Commerce Center - 30mc
Agriculture Center - 30mc
Grand-Scale Factories - 30mc
Planetary Coliseum - 30mc
Research Center - 300mc
Shipyards - 100mc
Starbase - 200mc
----------
Grand total - 720mc

This doesn't include defensive structures, but with these scaled down prices, the scaled down economy becomes kind of a non issue.

The one problem I have with the economy is the Industry sector. It seems horribly, horribly gimped to the point where creating an Industrial world is only really viable after serious research and hundreds of years of growth. See the links I provide below in the population focus point.

3) Population growth rate : too low or about right?

Shockingly low compared to before, and definitely much TOO low for the homeworld. 200 years and Earth has just barely passed current population levels. In fact, after 200 years and 5 colonies existing for more then 100, only earth has anything like a population. Only one other planet has squeaked its way up to 1.18 billion residents.

This drastically changes the way worlds must be designed, since people are now the limiting factor rather then the planet...and I quite like it. You actually have to specialize a world somewhat to get decent returns out of it. Having maxed out industry and research means you're probably going to be getting crap from both sectors due to a lack of workers.

Example here: one of my early colonizations, now mature(ish)
http://i.imgur.com/Py3x1t2.jpg

Now specialized for research, passed 2 turns so that population could properly swap sectors.
http://i.imgur.com/4kiaCG9.jpg

Now specialized for industry, again 2 turns passed.
http://i.imgur.com/H0Wf6ff.jpg

Quite a difference, no? This makes research worlds viable, but rather poor income producers, whereas industrial worlds are still crap. In fact, the only reason I can see to build any industry anywhere is to speed up ship production.

4) Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)
Overwhelming yes, at least on my part. This feature is awesome and I haven't encountered a bug in it yet.

More to come once I get more done.


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:56 pm 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
Re: Saved game v4.42 report - about grave robbers engagement with the hammer quest

I think SugeBearX reported.. Computer name had Bear in it, since the report was anonymous. (unless you provide a name/email address etc.)

I looked at it (the saves are included automatically when you send us a report) but the engagement worked OK.

Only reason I can see it failing is if you were in AUTO mode passing by. The quest mobs are setup on purpose to wait until you receive the quest popup to fight. So if you happen to be moving and not engaged/manual control you can't get this popup and they won't engage you.

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:20 pm 
Contributor
Explorer
Explorer
Contributor
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:17 am
Posts: 16
Offline
That was me. (Sorry...I forgot to include my name and email :D ) I definitely was not in auto mode, though I was engaging them in a different sector than where I triggered them. I was unable to replicate my own bug after multiple reloads, but opted to document it in the event that it popped up again at a later date. Heh...sorry I wasn't more specific about the number of the save file...I didn't know the save files were auto sent. (Facepalm)

Now for some more game notes. I am now at war on two fronts Har'Kan and Varaians) and boy am I glad I saved as much money as I did. I am still making money every turn, but I am now feeling the effects of the increased military upkeep on my economy. (144 bc income - 68 bc expenses 52 bc of which is ship and star-base maintenance) Don Barsillio is currently eating 7.66 bc of my income...and I stupidly agreed to his deal before I knew where the junkyards were. (I still haven't found them)

I still believe the star-bases, shipyards, and missile defense take a prohibitively long time to build. In my scenario I built none of them whilst keeping my military expenses down, thus generating huge savings. As soon as it became necessary to have these constructions, I simply queued them up and bought them out. I have been doing the same thing with my ships. To be fair, I do feel as though I earned the right to do this by being frugal and cautious in the early game, but the mid-game economy might be out of whack, as I cannot envision a time in the future where I will actually have to wait for anything to build. (2tc in the bank and a net income of 76 bc a turn)

I currently have four allies, (Kortahz, Lezgoon, Barbecks, Kuntari) all of whom I have hornswaggled into paying me a 10% tribute. I have learned all their techs, except for the Kortahz, who I believe are still holding one back. Part of me feels like I have had too easy a time acquiring my allies, techs and tributes, while the other part of me notes that I haven't been able to do this with every faction. Two factions in communications range are not allies (Gargals are friendly and paying 10% tribute, Tantiks are neutral and incredibly stubborn :) ) The two factions I am at war with are out of com range and the Barsigs and Kamzaks are friendly (Though the Kamzaks have no problem shooting down my scouts that roam into their territory. All in all I feel like I have gotten the better of my AI allies in negotiations...but the arrangements have certainly benefited both sides.

The enemy AI is holding its own in ship and fleet design in my burgeoning wars. I am currently in a stalemate with both AI enemies. Aside from a wee too much reliance on large numbers of small ships, the AI is keeping me wary and on guard. I need to make some logistical adjustments to my ships and colony locations. I feel as though I am ahead of the AI in ship and fleet power optimization, but I have left myself woefully unprepared to engage in rapid response (No forward bases, and not enough cargo holds on my battleships)

Something definitely needs to be done to make combat a bit more manageable, as I find myself groaning when I have large amounts of ships very far from the action. Flying these ships towards the combat zone turn by turn on the large sector map is...not elegant...to put it mildly. The question is...how to fix the soul crushing boredom of flying 10 ships towards combat for 10 or more turns without altering or compromising the realistic scale of the battlefield and the excellent (And yes I said excellent) turn-based combat. I still get giddy and excited when I go into combat with a couple of fleets who are relatively close to the action...but then that pesky third fleet is 15 turns away from combat and I have no way to get them into battle without shepherding them the whole way. Is there any way you could make it possible to automate flight of ships in tactical combat until, say, they were in firing range? Perhaps use of a vector that will allow the player to click on a destination multiple turns away. Obviously this would necessitate a display of the number of turns to reach the destination. Just my two cents...vector lines, eta, and multi-turn auto-movement would take combat over the top.

The game still needs more in-game clarity as to how some things work. As a person who plays Endless Space, I feel qualified to say that opacity does not equal difficulty. Opacity of in-game systems and items merely equals frustration. The aforementioned cargo holds are an example of this. What they do (allow me to travel farther without resupply) needs to be readily apparent as does the direct effect of each cargo hold I add to the ship. To this point I have no clue as to how many holds I need to efficiently move through my territories or how I can space my colonies to optimize travel times. I assume the green/orange travel vector indicates when I am in/out of supply range...the problem is I don't KNOW nor do I have the info necessary to actually fix it. Sorry to get all ranty, but lack of info can be a real game breaker...see SotS II. I have a lot more to say but I have a football game to prepare for and my testing to do tonight so I will continue in the next installment.


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:12 am 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
Thanks for the summary! Would you mind sending your current saves game using the report link, I would like to see your economy in mid-late game.

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:06 pm 
Contributor
Advisor
Advisor
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 pm
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Offline
Standard, No Tutorials, Missions on

Test version 4.42

Playtest feedback focus:
1. AI challenge/difficuly level: easy/good/hard?

Good, much harder then it use to be and still has some interesting things you can play around with. I went a route of making friends once again like I did in my first game and it was much harder to get friends and keep them to a degree. The prior version I was able to friend everyone simply by giving away a few techs. It still works but to a much less degree and I found it took a good amount of time to make friends. If you friend the right people you can have some awesome allies. Your ability to order allies to defend worlds or take works is great. I also found that although you don't have a strait up way to trade tech that if I had good standing with people I could demand a tech and it actually worked. That was a suprise to me, I wasn't more powerful (although I did have a good size fleet and was helping in a war) but I had great relations and had given them a tech or two before the demand. They gave it up with out a complaint. Although I didn't push it to any extreme.

2. Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game

I have only been playing around in early and Mid game at this point with a few saves but Economy needs a major overhaul. I was making about what I was spending but I was able to buy out everything I wanted made. One thing here to point out is the Industry problem. Currently its useless. I don't even consider upgrading it. For me this is actually more based on Economy then the usefulness of going full Research and farming. If I upgrade everything but Industry on all my worlds I make a very good amount of money which allows me to buy everything instead of letting industry build it.

I feel this should be fixed. I don't think making Industry give more money, is correct. Industry needs to be the back bone of any world that wants to do anything for making stuff, even planetary upgrades. After a world has what it needs and doesn't need to make ships sure get rid of industry but before then you will need lots of workers and lots of money to upgrade.

My idea for fixing this is to 10x your buy out costs or more and have building start costs to build increased again but keep upkeep low. Should cost a good amount of money to upgrade and should be a choice. Each building needs to have its own special thing that makes it worth upgrading but you shouldn't upgrade every build. Cost is the best way to influence this. Buy out should also be greatly increased and only used when your deeply in need of such a thing. Industry should be made more powerful regarding creation times. If you don't have a strong industry you shouldn't be able to build stuff on a planet very quickly. I spend most of the game buying out everything right now and thats just not right. I see a star base builds in 99 turns+ and laugh because I can buy it out with out a problem. Heck first turn In normally buy out a small and med ship, upgrade a few things and buy out entertanment. Thats just not right.

3. Population growth rate : too low or about right?

Growth Rate is about right for new worlds I feel but should have a point where the population booms and then slows down again once it reaches cap. However Earth in 2150 having a starting pop of under its current number is mindblowingly low. Even low numbers shoot at 10 billion and some around 20 billion depending on tech and war around this time. Also the amount of population growth needs to be greatly increased on the Homeworld.

One thing I was wondering here is do you have any plans for a Migration system even if its very basic. The way I see it your Home should be the becon of your race and your pop mostly comes from here and migrates to other plants to increase their population. I really like the idea of it being more realistic in terms of Colonization of a planet. Like in Star Trek most Colonies even on useful planets are small with just Millions of people. This makes sense. If you find a planet that isn't populated, you have a whole new Planet to develop and that takes time, hard work, and a crazy amount of reason needed behind it. If you there just to mine then why do you need 10 billion people to move in and grow this place, really you just need miners and families and maybe some other random jobs.

Even Planets very much like earth would IMHO not blow up in a few decades to the same status as a homeworld in development or population. Now after 150+ years or so and it was a really great planet you might have something like your Homeworld but unless people fled your Homeworld to there it probably wouldn't be close to is population. But thats taking in to considering the amount of construction effort it takes to build an actual world that holds 10+ billion future humans. In general other games IMHO rely on expansion to be the end all be all of the 4x games. If you don't own enough space you just don't have the resources or pop to compete with other races. One reason I feel for this is in most 4x games you put a small group of people on a planet and let them grow and after 50 years you have your self a planet better then your homeworld. Most games make your homeworld useless by mid game since you find bigger better worlds. I like the idea of that being pushed back to End game status which low population growth on new worlds gives you.

Some things I would like to suggest here is boost Homeworld base population and/or growth rate (Give a back story if your going to start with less then 10 billion IMHO) but make Pop caps well know on planets and when getting close to pop cap on a planet have growth rate lowered again. With new Worlds have it start out about what you have it now. For migration I would just have it do a basic check on worlds. If any world is close to its population cap (the point where a planet's growth rate starts to go down instead of up) That world gives a bonus to any Non close to Pop Cap planets. So with 1 close to pop cap planet you would have a small bonus to population growth, at 5 planets close to Pop cap you would have a good bonus going out to your non pop capped planets.

Simple fix would be up the population on Earth to 10 or so billion and have its cap be like 11 billion to explain why its so slow, and leave it the same, I really like the slow population growth, just hope that soon slow building planets will come as currently you can just buy out the place to make it grand with no population.


4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)

Really liked this and didn't find any glitches that I know of

=======

Another suggestion off topic a bit. Early Game stuff to do with Tactical combat. Seems to be lacking allot and I think with the system you have you could give players allot of little things to fight and do in Early game with Tactical Combat with out overloading them. Throwing around Space Pirates and monsters and Minor Civs for players to deal with would be really cool I think and hope you add allot of elements into the game to allow players to really play with the Tactical Combat before going to war with a Civ.

_________________
Image


Last edited by FrozenFallout on Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:29 pm 
Contributor
Advisor
Advisor
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 pm
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Offline
GhostOfGod wrote:

3) Population growth rate : too low or about right?

Shockingly low compared to before, and definitely much TOO low for the homeworld. 200 years and Earth has just barely passed current population levels. In fact, after 200 years and 5 colonies existing for more then 100, only earth has anything like a population. Only one other planet has squeaked its way up to 1.18 billion residents.

This drastically changes the way worlds must be designed, since people are now the limiting factor rather then the planet...and I quite like it. You actually have to specialize a world somewhat to get decent returns out of it. Having maxed out industry and research means you're probably going to be getting crap from both sectors due to a lack of workers.

Example here: one of my early colonizations, now mature(ish)
http://i.imgur.com/Py3x1t2.jpg

Now specialized for research, passed 2 turns so that population could properly swap sectors.
http://i.imgur.com/4kiaCG9.jpg

Now specialized for industry, again 2 turns passed.
http://i.imgur.com/H0Wf6ff.jpg

Quite a difference, no? This makes research worlds viable, but rather poor income producers, whereas industrial worlds are still crap. In fact, the only reason I can see to build any industry anywhere is to speed up ship production.

4) Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)
Overwhelming yes, at least on my part. This feature is awesome and I haven't encountered a bug in it yet.

More to come once I get more done.


I do my Specialization a bit differently then you. I noticed that only the Pop % was effected by the Bottom 3 Buildings. The Top 3 you can have fully decked out with out it effecting your work force. So a Research planet would have low farming (if needed to keep alive) buildings, No industry and Full Research and you get awesome research returns after population grows. I didn't see any major benefit to razing my Top 3 Tax, trade, and entertainment buildings just that you stop making good money.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:28 pm 
Contributor
Advisor
Advisor
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 pm
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Offline
opps

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:10 am 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 69
Offline
classic, no missions no tutorial. 4.42
Current strat: no colonies only outposts untill the tech is there for them to draw a profit. (around 200?) turns (terrans excluded)

no industry on earth (after cleanup, dump industry) research far too important.

no research on other planets (they dont give research for a long...long time...) just eat 125+mc credits per planet

not bothering to waste money on colonies (that wont profit) nets huge BC bonuses for earth. enabling purchases of everything

1 mothership filled to the tits with figher bays WILL hold off an entire fleet of NPC ships as of right now >:) (come at me bro!)

there really isnt much of a reason to colonize other planets unless they are terran. or untill you have enough techs (terraforming, various workforce techs ect)

forgetting to dock your fighters at end of combat makes me nerd rage.

is there a hotkey for "done" to end a ships turn, im apparently blind and cant find it. keep pressing D for some moo2 reason... (is there an option to set hotkeys?)

can fighters auto dock after all hostiles are defeated ? (without "enageing sector" and clicking the recall button)

can fighterbays "repair" fighters? (does it cost supply? if they do?)

tired now. new saves to be sent in tomarrow after i refine a few things, and actually take over the universe without diplomacy >:) (every 50 years ok? >:)

_________________
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm 
Dev. Team
Horizon
Horizon
User avatar
Dev. Team
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:04 pm
Posts: 1338
Location: Canada
Offline
Thanks for the feedback guys. Working hard to get stuff done but some quick comments:

> There are more changes coming to colony management, a bit more thought will have to go in what you build with a limit on building slots. But you guys are already doing it with the current system.
> Buildings will give base bonuses (good for low population planets, making them worthwhile again)
> Automatic Recall of fighters (on the list of to do). Open to suggestions on how you would like this done
> I'm fixing the fighter bay not resupplying when docked (it was omitted)
> Hotkey for Done is Enter
> Binding keys is not available at this time

> Population migration and growth. I really do like everything you noted about this, we are totally on the same page. Just needs more implementation to make it work well.
> Economy buyout costs, noted.

_________________
Horizon - Lead Designer


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:21 pm 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 69
Offline
i "just" sent in the saves for the detailed economy Zai complete with a "wow look at this start!" can easilly play around with various mechanics from there.

Quote:
> Automatic Recall of fighters (on the list of to do). Open to suggestions on how you would like this done


how its been done. FaF (fire and forget) seeks out the first one targeted. fires till it runs out of fuel. returns to be relaunched. (minor repairs in bay, resupply at station)

how it could be done. Launch, controll manually. combat ends - auto dock, basically dissappear and reload the launcher.

feel free to horizonize it! >:)

_________________
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:37 pm 
Contributor
Advisor
Advisor
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 pm
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Offline
Test version 4.42 Missions On, Tutorial Off

Playtest feedback focus:
1. AI challenge/difficuly level: easy/good/hard?

After getting the AI into End Game I find it hard to judge its challenge. At first I want to say good but on the other there seem to be things that make it overly easy to beat the AI. If you make friends and know your enemies you can do allot to make it very easy. In my game I took to End Game I focused on trade with Alien Races and Exploration at the start of the game. This worked out great. Using a good number of scouts I was able to Explore the whole galaxy by Midgame which game me an insane amount of tech upgrades.

I didn't colonize much and didn't care much about the colonize just upgraded at a whim and went for Terran and Ocean worlds for the most part. I had about 13 or so planets between 5 or so systems and never expanded past that as it would seem to just add to my work load and make my score lead even more insane. I could have gone all tech worlds but was lazy and just upgraded everything as I had the cash flow. By End Game I had a huge lead on everyone in tech and ships and was just about the same on planets (AI must of been with me on not wanting to deal with expansion into new worlds) There where a ton of ok and good worlds left to settle all over the galaxy it seemed but no one wanted any of them.

The battle AI seemed to be much improved and did invade some of my lesser worlds and even took out Mars those punks but mostly due to me auto fighting, however it does seem that the AI ships can some times sneak up out of nowhere and get a fleet deep into your system before you knew they where even there. This is how they got Mars.

The biggest consern I have with the AI is it doesn't seem to interact very much with each other. I was the only one that declared war or forced others to declare war on anyone. It seems like had I not been in the Galaxy everyone would just not deal with each other. Now Im not sure about trade but they sure never Allied with anyone but me. Even when I split the Galaxy in two with wars the side getting kicked around never allied with each other. The galaxy also doesn't seem very alive with the AI, You don't see anyone trying to get you to attack anyone or any where or to break alliances with long time enemies. You also dont get to see who has what agreements with who just friends Enemies and what trades they have with you. If the AI could work together better it would be a big improvement.

2. Economy balance: treasury situation at early/mid/end game

Economy in the early game was giving to much a turn but wasn't that bad it allowed me to buy out allot but seem to keep me going if I ignored Industry. By Midgame I was over flowed with money and even building huge fleets did nothing to increase costs. I also never expanded beyond a 5 or so systems and didn't ever colonize after I got Terreforming which I could of but would have just made me even more of a rich man. By Late game I had a few Trillion in the back and just kept on pumping out ships at every planet and buying stuff off left and right, every world fully upgraded and I just couldn't find enough things to spend money on but expansion which I didn't need to do since I was so rich.

3. Population growth rate : too low or about right?

Even getting to End Game Population growth is slow, which I liked. Just needs a little tweeking like I said before.

4. Auto-selection of task forces from Galaxy Map fleet panel: like or hate? (we will likely revert, unless it's an overwhelming yes!)

As before I really liked.

====================


Extra info

Exploration is very Over Powered right now. I can from the start just send 15 or so scouts out and explore every planet in the game (well except a few protected by races that shoot you down) and by doing so I get tons of cool tech and I also don't seem to compete with the AI for exploration sites. I can just walk into many systems owned by some one else and dig up whatever I want. With out stuff protecting sites or a need for more then a dinky scout to do dig sites it makes it really easy to buff your tech by turn 50 to turn 100 by exploring with no risk. This also made the start a little boring and repetitive. Would be nice to have encounters around planets and have more Exploration missions. If worlds where protected by minor races, monsters, pirates it would really liven up the start of the game and make scout exploration not as good.

At the end I had to just see how well I would stand up vs everyone in the galaxy. So I went to war with everyone and having got a level 10 weapon tech some how and having shields (which took a good amount of diplo to get) I was able to kick everyones but. Lots of work to be done taking everything over but at this point Im not worried at all about anyone. Ship building is still a little blan however due to the limited choices you get and the effectiveness of everything. Your choices are normally effective tech or less effective tech, with very little difference in feeling.

Diplo was better but as mentioned above the AI doesn't seem to diplo with it self which can put you at the top of the world when it comes to diplo matters. I was able to get mostly what I wanted but had to work for it and give stuff up which was nice. Really hoping this gets some good overhauls to make diplo a huge part of the game.

I was also able to complete all the missions and have to say I was happy with what was in them and what your rewards where. I didn't focus on them until Midgame and was happy to see I needed a fleet to finish most of them. Really gave me stuff to do in Midgame and really hope to see a ton of these in the final version.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:23 pm 
Contributor
Ambassador
Ambassador
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 69
Offline
Quote:
AI ships can some times sneak up out of nowhere and get a fleet deep into your system before you knew they where even there.


would seriously adore a horizonized moo2 version of this, very obvious fleets traversing the stars. unless of course they have stealth.. but thats just mean.. stupid darloks... brb.. going to punish them again...

_________________
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Upcoming test version
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:21 pm 
Contributor
Advisor
Advisor
User avatar
Contributor
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:26 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Minsk
Offline
Hi. Sorry for being quite late with the report.

Ok, here's wot I think.


1. With still existing diplomacy loophole (described later) it doesn't matter.
2. Treasury is quite empty early in game, in midgame and endgame still way more than I can spend.
3. Too low for me.
4. Quite fine, actually.


Diplomacy loophole - as soon as you are in contact range with any other civilization, you:
1) Warily greet it.
2) Offer ship ressuplies and a tech.
3) Wait for five turns and repeat step 2 as long as neccesary.
3.1) When the other civ is "friendly", they'll sign any treaty with you.
3.2) When the other civ is "friendly" to the right left side of the slider, offer them a tech and alliance. Even if they decline, they'll offer alliance themselves in next 1-3 turns.

So, war is left only for lazy or aggressive players.


Early game economics feels cheap for me. Ok, I've bought everything, now what else can I do? Oh, no, the top-secret entertainment mecca costs exorbitant... 3bc. Okay.
There is no sinkhole for money and the problem lies in availability of nearly all buildings from the very beginning.
Adding buildings for mid- or endgame (via research, maybe, after hitting some population cap, etc) would have allowed better usefulness/maintenance balance.

On the other hand, orbital and defense constructions are too expensive, prohibitively expensive. Now it makes sense to buy and scrap colonizers MOO-style instead of refitting them at home planet.


Research - even more glacial in the early stage. I mean, I get boosts usually only from archeotech - it's nice, it stimulates exploration, but I can't go high-tech.

For me it's worse than in the stable version - new problems without any fix for the old ones.


Changing supplies mechanism for exploration... Well, I'd like to explore less, but quicker. Having ships reaching their destination in 15-20 years - well, way too long for me.
Player should have the ability to keep travel time from one edge of their empire to another more or less constant, nevermind the size.
But in the current game mechanic decently quick ships will break sector battles, easily going in for the kill and getting out of the defenders' range in one turn.


Overall - I didn't like most of the changes.
The game became slower, with less value of any given turn.
I haven't got in a zeitnot even once. Compare it with choosing, what building to sell to have enough money to buy a starbase before Antarans will arrive.


Top
 Profile  
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group