What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Strategy, Guides, FAQ
Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

Playing my games on normal difficulty I often get the diplomatic "request" to stop my "reckless expansion".

What I want to know is how this is exactly defined. I understand that founding new colonies in previously neutral (unowned) systems is part of this. But does founding colonies in star systems I own belong to that, too?
I couldn't figure it out during playing because sometimes the latter one seemed to count and other times it didn't. Maybe this was just coincidence?
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

User avatar
FrozenFallout
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by FrozenFallout »

Basically reckless expansion is expanding farther and faster then other races want you to. After getting that message you have to wait 10 turns before colonizing another planet or you lose their respect and take a standings hit with them.
Image

Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

FrozenFallout wrote:Basically reckless expansion is expanding farther and faster then other races want you to. After getting that message you have to wait 10 turns before colonizing another planet or you lose their respect and take a standings hit with them.
Yeah, I know this 10 turns limit because it is displayed in diplomacy tooltips. But is colonizing planets in already owned star systems really countable? The AI seems to understand star systems as owned as soon as there's a colony founded on any planet.
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

User avatar
FrozenFallout
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 136
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by FrozenFallout »

From what I have experienced it's any colonization. I could be Wong though I haven't tested it
Image

User avatar
keller
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 267

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by keller »

I don't believe it counts systems in your own space. However, if you get a warning and colonize a new sector then it most definitely impacts relations.
keller~

Lithari
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 231

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Lithari »

Relations goes down regardless for me, especially the tantiks, i have to keep giving gifts and giving money aid and ship supplies just to improve the relationship, otherwise it would just slowly degrade until war, i preferred the diplomacy as it was before, atleast i could get it to friendly in a few gifts instead of 100000000s of gifts and constant gifts.

So, let me get it straight, i have to heed what the AI say about expanding, yet they can expand where ever they want and any requests or demands from me get ignored.....not balanced at all.

Ashbery76
Vanguard
Vanguard
Posts: 53

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Ashbery76 »

The races are not all supposed to be friendly and the tantiks are xenophobes.Diplomacy was a joke before as you basically dictated the galaxy to your whim.

Lithari
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 231

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Lithari »

Ashbery76 wrote:The races are not all supposed to be friendly and the tantiks are xenophobes.Diplomacy was a joke before as you basically dictated the galaxy to your whim.
Well, the tantiks i can understand, but all the races are basically the same, you expand, you pee them off, they expand towards you and they get miffed that you are close to them......the diplomacy went from 'dictated by our whim' to 'dictated by the AI's whim'....so, in a way, its still a joke.

I might as well just play in classic mode and just obiliterate the aliens, its not like its being coded to be done otherwise.

Bansheedragon
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 169

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Bansheedragon »

Lithari wrote:
Ashbery76 wrote:The races are not all supposed to be friendly and the tantiks are xenophobes.Diplomacy was a joke before as you basically dictated the galaxy to your whim.
Well, the tantiks i can understand, but all the races are basically the same, you expand, you pee them off, they expand towards you and they get miffed that you are close to them......the diplomacy went from 'dictated by our whim' to 'dictated by the AI's whim'....so, in a way, its still a joke.

I might as well just play in classic mode and just obiliterate the aliens, its not like its being coded to be done otherwise.
I noticed this as well.
One game I played the AI races was always demanding I given them tech or star system, and no matter what I did relation just kept deteriorating.
And I'm talking all the races, not just 1 or 2 of them, and no matter what I did I could never get above neutral any of them so I gave up that game after a wile.

I made another post in the support section about how I feel the AI is very aggressive or hostile towards me, they constantly pepper me with demands for tributes, tech or star systems.
So the diplomacy stuff still need some tweaking in my opinion.

Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

Lithari wrote:Relations goes down regardless for me, especially the tantiks, i have to keep giving gifts and giving money aid and ship supplies just to improve the relationship, otherwise it would just slowly degrade until war, i preferred the diplomacy as it was before, atleast i could get it to friendly in a few gifts instead of 100000000s of gifts and constant gifts.

So, let me get it straight, i have to heed what the AI say about expanding, yet they can expand where ever they want and any requests or demands from me get ignored.....not balanced at all.
Well, having played several games I think that diplomacy is implemented pretty well. So far I played Humans, Barsig, Barbeck and Gargal - all games in normal mode. You can easily keep good relations with other species if you offer to supply their ships (increase their op range). If you make one good treaty at a time and not all at once, you can increase relations to friendly or even ally with just coming around every ten turns. I think it's okay that relations degrade when you ignore another race unless they have gone really good. Oh and research plays an important role too. If you forget to research diplo techs, you'll have a bunch of work keeping those aliens in a good state.
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

Lithari
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 231

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Lithari »

Xyquas wrote:
Lithari wrote:Relations goes down regardless for me, especially the tantiks, i have to keep giving gifts and giving money aid and ship supplies just to improve the relationship, otherwise it would just slowly degrade until war, i preferred the diplomacy as it was before, atleast i could get it to friendly in a few gifts instead of 100000000s of gifts and constant gifts.

So, let me get it straight, i have to heed what the AI say about expanding, yet they can expand where ever they want and any requests or demands from me get ignored.....not balanced at all.
Well, having played several games I think that diplomacy is implemented pretty well. So far I played Humans, Barsig, Barbeck and Gargal - all games in normal mode. You can easily keep good relations with other species if you offer to supply their ships (increase their op range). If you make one good treaty at a time and not all at once, you can increase relations to friendly or even ally with just coming around every ten turns. I think it's okay that relations degrade when you ignore another race unless they have gone really good. Oh and research plays an important role too. If you forget to research diplo techs, you'll have a bunch of work keeping those aliens in a good state.
Sadly, it takes over 5 lots of supplying their ships for it to even make a dent to the relationship and the moment the treaty ends, it goes back down....ultimately, if i don't give gifts every single turn, credits, tech and supplies for their ships, the relationship will go down more and more, regardless of races, tantiks don't count cause...well, they are the tantik.

Either way, i just play on the easiest setting cause i just play for fun, not challenge, so i think the diplomacy should be based on the difficulty setting, Also, expansion warnings should only occur in systems where they already have a colony, not un-owned systems...just my opinion.

Bansheedragon
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 169

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Bansheedragon »

I seem to recall reading somewhere, Cant find it now, that colonizing within the supply range of the AI could also trigger this.
Supply range being indicated by the circle around a star system.

So if you colonize too close to them they tell you to stop expanding.

Lithari
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 231

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Lithari »

Bansheedragon wrote:I seem to recall reading somewhere, Cant find it now, that colonizing within the supply range of the AI could also trigger this.
Supply range being indicated by the circle around a star system.

So if you colonize too close to them they tell you to stop expanding.
If that is the case and they are following the same rules as the player, then 75% of the galaxy will be off limits, since near the beginning of the game i can travel to anywhere within 75% of the galaxy, granted it would take some turns, but its possible, they need to change it to just in the owned systems only.

Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

Lithari wrote:Sadly, it takes over 5 lots of supplying their ships for it to even make a dent to the relationship and the moment the treaty ends, it goes back down....ultimately, if i don't give gifts every single turn, credits, tech and supplies for their ships, the relationship will go down more and more, regardless of races, tantiks don't count cause...well, they are the tantik.

Either way, i just play on the easiest setting cause i just play for fun, not challenge, so i think the diplomacy should be based on the difficulty setting, Also, expansion warnings should only occur in systems where they already have a colony, not un-owned systems...just my opinion.
I'll write down how I handle diplomacy in hope it helps you (Tantiks excluded). The basic principle is to keep the relation indicator in movement to the right.

So, when I meet a new race I ask them for a trade treaty. Some races will agree right from the start (good chances with Barsig or Humans), others won't (Kamzak, Varaians). I come back every now and then (after about 3 turns) to look at the indicator and when I see it stopped or even is going to the left I offer supply deliveries. There are some races that cannot be convinced as easily as others - the Har'kan for example. There I the indicator goes left before the supply treaty ends. I usually compensate this with money, meaning I offer them temporal financial aid (10 rounds). And I ask for new treaties like trade tready, free tourism or free trady before I offer another supply delivery. Because when you ask them something they don't like, the indicator moves to the left again. But if you compensate this right after your declined proposal, the race just remembers your gift and still likes you more (indicator moves to the right). Oh, and if you want to have a constantly good impact on another race just pay tribute to them. That's quite expensive but usually they'll leave you in peace as you're a source of income to them.
Increasing tech levels in universal translator and xeno biology can help to make this a bit easier.

This approach is some kind of work but I actually like it because it's like colony management on a diplomatic level. This way I even managed to get really close with Varaians.
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

I've got a new theory on how "reckless expansion" demand works:

It seems to occur every time when the player colonizes a planet that an AI player had already discovered and would like to colonize himself. For example: If you colonize barren or toxic planets, you'll never get this demand. But if you colonize terran or oceanic planets, empires with these planet types as their homeworld type will more likely demand you to stop expansion. The mineral richness seems to influence planet's attractiveness to the AI, too.
I discovered this behaviour in a game with a customized race that uses barren planets as homeworlds (habitable planets set to low).

Maybe this is coupled to the speed you found new colonies. Operating with 4 colony ships at once seemed to trigger that demand more often than operating with 3 or less colony ships.

I haven't tried to combine these two: Colonizing barren and toxic planets at super speed. But my guess is: Nobody will care.

Just thought some of you find this interesting.
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

User avatar
keller
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 267

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by keller »

I have a new theory of my own. If you will note on the galactic map the little circle around star systems. This is the territory that empires own. My new theory is that when you colonize a system in which the territory "bumps" into theirs that it really annoys them because you are in fact colonizing with in their territory.
keller~

Xyquas
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 140
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Xyquas »

keller wrote:I have a new theory of my own. If you will note on the galactic map the little circle around star systems. This is the territory that empires own. My new theory is that when you colonize a system in which the territory "bumps" into theirs that it really annoys them because you are in fact colonizing with in their territory.
Sounds plausible but this cannot be the only event source. I once had a complaint when I colonized a new planet in sector 1 while the complaining empire only had 2 systems in sector 3.
Master Of Orion 2 = Great
Master Of Orion 3 = Trash
Horizon = The real Master Of Orion 3 :-)

User avatar
keller
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 267

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by keller »

Sounds plausible but this cannot be the only event source. I once had a complaint when I colonized a new planet in sector 1 while the complaining empire only had 2 systems in sector 3.
Ok, well that wipes out that theory. I think that since we are all stumped here there is but one thing left to do....we will have to wait for the developer to respond to this thread so that we have a clear answer to the question.
keller~

User avatar
Zaimat
Dev. Team
Dev. Team
Posts: 1425
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by Zaimat »

The reckless expansion (controversy) is based on how much a race has expanded within the last 10 turns. If it's greater than the set threshold then other races may complain via diplomacy (only once every 10 turns). There is a minor tolerance hit if they complain.

Expansion is calculated by the amount of your race's presence in new sectors/systems. Owning one or more planets in the same system counts as One.

Looks like the threshold is pretty harsh so I'll adjust it to be more permissive. Right now if you gain presence in 2 new sectors within 10 turns, it is considered reckless expansion.
I'm thinking I'll change it to something along the 3 new sectors within 5-6 turns. What do you guys think? What would you consider too fast an expansion rate for your play style?
Horizon - Lead Designer | a.k.a. Raf

User avatar
keller
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 267

Re: What exactly is "reckless expansion"?

Post by keller »

hmm. Since this effects diplomacy, I would like to suggest that you adjust this based on the difficulty setting of the current game.
Another suggestion I have on this is to allow the human player to threaten the AI players in the same way, and while I'm thinking about it, I rarely seen the AI colonize A planet in the same sector as someone else unless they are allies (the AI does not appear to do any sort of wreckless expansion at all even though some of them are suppose to have aggressive tendencies)
keller~