Horizon needs planet defense layers and "partial function"

[eidolad]

TLDR summary:

a. starbases need heavy beam weapons to replace the regular size mounts.

b. Horizon needs a "layered defense" building model for planetary defense. As the attacking fleets are evolving/growing, so should planetary defense in a sort of "arms race".

c. A missile base, fighter base, etc. should be "partially operational" during the building phases. Think of the great classic game Pax Imperia: a partially complete set of the defensive structures were fully capable of destroying enemy ships and extracting a cost to the attacker.

d. add at least one more planet defenses for the mid-mid game such as

"fighter base" and/or

"light beam defense satellites".


e. In other words: planets should be just as dangerous as fleets.



Rambling:

1. The rock-paper-scissors of planetary defense

For me, the game centers around "What will it cost to conquer that planet?" a la MOO2.

a. In Master of Orion II, a planet can develop a huge stack of hit points by building "layers" called "missile base", "fighter garrison", and "ground batteries"....if that empire has access to the tech. Along with a starbase or battlestation with "rotating shield facings" too!

To conquer the planet, the attacker has to destroy all of these layers while surviving what each layer can do to them. The layers are stripped away randomly...which is a really big deal since the early removal of "ground batteries" can be catastrophic.

The longer the attacker waits, the more layers are added. The more layers, the larger and better equipped the attacking fleet has to be.

And more layers after that in the late game (stellar converter, mines). A well defended high technology planet can extract a huge cost to mid-game tech fleets. Especially when there is a defending fleet of any size to draw fire.


b. "early fleet" MOO2 battleship is very expensive and valued unit. A pulson missile base can fire an endless stream of heavy salvos that, say, a fleet of six "early" battleships would be challenged to defeat given the rate of fire, while that fleet is trying to get close enough to bomb/beam the missile base.

So is that planet worth the potential loss of one, or maybe even two or more, of those battleships?

In some cases the single addition of the fighter garrison (which effectively "doubles the hit points" of that killer missile base) often spells the difference between whether that planet is even a conceivable target or not.


So ff to Horizon:

a. An early fleet of six "destroyer" class ships (size 2) might have the point defense (say, 9 light lasers in a single bank, each ship) to safely reduce the salvos a single missile base in order to get close enough to drop their bombs. Chances are high that one of those ships will be destroyed, especially given the "instant launch and hit" that seems to occur when those ships are right over the planet

(or maybe I'm not managing the turns correctly...I'm using the "wait" command to try to ensure I can get my point defense launch when those missiles "appear")

Once a single destroyer goes boom, the amount of point defense volume reduces, and another ship will go boom, etc. and the remaining attackers will have to retreat.

Six cruisers, on the other hand, should have the point defense to handle the missile base (say, 7 regular and 9 light lasers in two banks, each ship).

Above is theoretical. My first attack fleet has usually ended up being these 10 total ships: 1 mothership, 2 cruisers, 7 destroyers. Combined, they easily handle a lone missile base's output so long as I keep the destroyers back after they drop their bombs.

And they easily handle the starbase too *because the current Horizon starbase does not mount heavy weapons"...so the attacker stays out of range and pounds it. The "cloak" starbase is toast as well, since I just need to sneak my mothership in range to make the starbase uncloak and fire.

b. Attacking fleets can build "multiple layers" simultaneously in Horizon (the three ship classes in their queues). Other than a starbase and a missile base, there aren't any other "layers" available to the planet in the "mid game".

c. I emphasize "lone" missile base, because the AI rarely seems to build a starbase anywhere but at their homeworld.

d. Suggestions: give the planets more defense infrastructure for the mid-game evolution. While the attacker is simultaneously building DD/CA/BB, the planets could be building these additional structures:

- fighter garrison (might consider to have these in orbital launch/rearm bays...I though MOO2 got it wrong by imagining little ships just going up and down a *planetary gravity well* as if it wasn't there in the middle of combat to rearm/refuel.

- orbital light beam array (i.e. the planet mounts light weapons to the existing comm/weather satellites). Their purpose is really to provide the planet some anti-missle/bomb defense. Yes, I think that shooting down a falling bomb should be just as feasible as shooting a missile. This sort of introduces an "automatic point defense shot option" as in MOO2.

- change the planetary build dynamic to match Pax Imperia: each defensive installation has some worth even with partially completed. I.e. a 10% completed missile base, fighter base, and starbase should be able to have 10% of its assets online.

Sure Make the starbase look "partially completed" but at least get some of the lasers up and running!

[Xyquas]

A short answer by a hasty reader:

I played MOO2 for years (what a fun!) and the planet defense buildings were extremely useful against the Antarans. Against any proper fleet they were just a drop of water. In almost all cases I had a fleet that was able to destroy the space station was also able to disable all planetary defenses.
And as bombarding a planet is really time consuming already I frankly would hate this getting worse due to more layers.

Regarding to the idea of the partially built missile bases: I like the concept buit it would make no sense with Horizon's current implementation. What should that be? 20 instead of 99 missiles? Only 20 per combat are needed. This would only make sense if missile bases became much more lethal with lots of slots or even a user defined armory - wait. Writing this I think I maybe make a suggestion out of it. So you inspired me - thank you!

[edit]This is the new thread I created as I think it's another idea: Add design feature for planetary defense building[/edit]

[eidolad]

Quick divergence into classic Moo2 land: Hmm, I always considered the Pulson missile base to be an important defense "standard" by which to measure other things. That installation is quite potent. All by itself, that base can hold off all but the "main fleet" of an empire, in the early to mid game. Anything smaller than battleship class is quite lucky to survive an attempt to close to bombing range.

And configuring a fleet of 6 battleships to be able to take down just a pulson missile base requires quite a fairly large number of anti-missile rockets, pd weapons, etc. Which is a big deal when it is your "only" main fleet...all those little popguns takes away from ship-killer weapons which may make for a Bad Day in Space if the enemy catches your "planetary assault configuration".

And wow, what a difference planetary missiles or beams make when supporting a defense fleet. These killers in Moo2 were an extreme force multiplier. Such that I could defend with 3 battleships against more than twice that number in many cases with a little help from my globular friend.


So in Horizon:

- A planet with 1.2 billion people who built a defensive installation to 80% completion...should expect something to shoot at a bad guy.

- And I would like to see planetary defenses actually function as a force multiplier. The starbase, if edited to carry heavy weapons and/or more fighters, fills this niche. But 20 million in one system, just won't see too many of those in the early-mid fleet phase.... I would like to see other planet installations or orbitals helping out (as stated in OP).

I'll take a peek at "Add design feature for planetary defense building" thread as well...

[Xyquas]

I think I got your point now @ early to mid-game. But considering the costs of the current defenses (10 billion min per installation) I don't think that more of them would be affordable in these game phases - unless you're playing the Barsig which seem to sweat credits

You could lower your expenses for the starbase with another configuration. As far as I remember does the standard config cost 10 bc and my modifications to use the free space coming from higher tech levels usually stay below 15 bc. Reconsidering, I think you could actually turn your starbase into a fighter garrison. If you like to experiment, maybe you try stuffing a starbase with nothing but fighters. This way the stealth / cloak device could come to it's full potential as you can launch fighters while enemies are still out of range.

Writing this, I got another idea. Maybe it would be nice having multiple starbase designs available at the same time - like we have with the different ship classes. So, in a system with 3 planets, I could build one starbase with fighters, one with missiles and one with beams. I have to rethink if this makes sense - maybe I'll try this next time I beginn a new game.

[eidolad]

Another way to say the make one of the points of the OP: i can build a scout or destroyer for a few thousand/million credits...why can the AI or human build the same smaller scale defense increments as well?

Like one or more "battle satellites". Right now we have nothing from zero to 10 million for planetary defense, and many many turns of building with all that money committed. And from the AI defense perspective...I've never seen any AI in any game be able to be everywhere at once with their ships...or human for that matter. So somebody planet-side has to be left home minding the store...