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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:15 pm 
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I doubt adding more micromanagement to planets would be a wise decision.
Terramorfing (to differentiate from the rather cheap solution in MOO2) should be automatic.

Let's imagine our colonists terramorph their planet themselves, as much as they need it.
Then the cost of terramorfing will be already included in maintenance fees.


So.
Terramorfing level + planet type/size = maximum population.
You're able to colonize any planet you want, however, if it's hostile, your guys will forever be confined in an armored outpost.
It's ok, as they may serve as a listening/refueling/maintenance post.

Let's then link limit on buildings with current population.
Somewhat like max_buildings = 4 + int(log(current_population)).
It makes sense, as you need many little cogs for your grand-scale factories, you can't just buy workers or summon them from thin air.
Also, it will make agricultural sector a number one priority to speed up the planet's development.

Then we'll have splendid stories how a humble refueling post, by your benevolence and wisdom, developed itself into a sprawling... metropolis? metroplanet? whatever.


Now, some corner cases.
1) Race A places an outpost on a planet X which is inhabitable for race A.
Race B tries to colonise a planet X which is habitable for race B
Then race B gets the ownership of the planet X, race A's outpost is eradicated.

2) Race A places an outpost on a planet X which is inhabitable for race A.
Race B places an outpost on a planet X which is inhabitable for race B.
Then both races coexist, the first one to unlock terramorfing on decent enough level to properly colonize the planet wins.

3) Race A has a planet with max capacity of 6 billion with current population at 4,5 billion.
Race B invades the planet with negligible civilian casualties, but race B's terramorphing level allows only 3 billion on this type of planet.
Then "Oh my Zectar, we didn't mean to... We're sorry... We didn't know oxygen is a poison for you. We've brought some roses as a sign of... WHY ARE YOUR BODIES COMBUSTING?!" and only 3 billion are living on this planet from this turn.
They'll be quite unhappy, though, but so it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:33 am 
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Of course would be inhabitants of a world try to make it a better place to live in. But this doesn't happen overnight and it's not easily done. A planets atmosphere can't be changed so easy. Look at earth: it took decades of industrialization on a crowded planet to change the mean temperature a few centigrades (even we did it unintentionally).
So if you want to terramorph a planet in a overseeable amount of time, you need extra machinery to do so, something that doesn't directly contribute (or at least in a small way) to the normal production of the planet.


Quote:
3) Race A has a planet with max capacity of 6 billion with current population at 4,5 billion.
Race B invades the planet with negligible civilian casualties, but race B's terramorphing level allows only 3 billion on this type of planet.
Then "Oh my Zectar, we didn't mean to... We're sorry... We didn't know oxygen is a poison for you. We've brought some roses as a sign of... WHY ARE YOUR BODIES COMBUSTING?!" and only 3 billion are living on this planet from this turn.
They'll be quite unhappy, though, but so it goes.

That's not logical. Because another takes the gouvernment, the planet won't change atmosphere overnight. It's possible a lower tech race could not preserve the planets state forever, but the degration of the planet would be a slow process.

In Moo2, a terran planet didn't change back to barren just because the conqueror didn't know how to terraform. If you can conquer such a planet, lucky for you.

Another matter is when the conquering race has another climate as an optimum (they breathe methane for example) and they start to form the planet for their need, that would be fatal for the "old" inhabitants, therefore the population limit would decrease to the "terra"forming level they can sustain.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:48 am 
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FTL isn't easily done either.

But if we're looking for realism, let's imagine that colonists do not actually live on the planet, but rather in sprawlng megamegapolises, in a controlled, artifitial environment - like in Ascendancy.
And that terrforming is actually a matter of designing and maintaining the complex machinery that makes these endless cities work.
As we don't pay for housing for the population - let's just add a maintenance fee. After all, both you and I aren't likely to survive without infrastructure in most places at Earth - either hunger or exposure to elements will likely cause a untimely death.

Then if we conquer a planet with a complex life-support system that's beyond our understanding, we're doomed to fail, at least partially.
If a volcanic race managed to make room only for 100 million on an oceanic planet - ok, we'll do it right.
If we've conquered a volcanic homeworld, with centuries of engineering ingenuity put into balancing of heat extractors and into design of geothermal system the size of an ocean - well, we're in trouble.

Now, gameplay-wise.
Such decision:
- eliminates the need for different textures
- solves the problem of assimilating races with drastically different living conditions (in an artificial environment you're not forced to have only one sweet spot)
- the extinction event saves the player from the "why are they dying, how can I stop it?!" frustration
-- as it is unlikely that a decent level-up in terramorfing will be achieved in a matter of turns
-- as mechanisms for transferring poplation between colonies are not yet introduced (and, frankly, are unrealistic even at scale of million)


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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Building megacities under domes, sealed from the environment of the planet isn't terraforming. That wasn't the case in ascendency either. There you built endless domes, their "terraforming" just added new places to add buildings.

Of course, a megacity which environment controls I can't manage is doomed. But on a real formed planet, the population is spread wide in un-domed cities and settlements. So as long as an invader starts to transform the planet into something different, there's no reason at all for the old popoulation to die. Or the new management decide to "clean" the planet from the alien and possibly resistant inhabtants and start a genocid program. But that's extermination, not terraforming.

To use the industry, resources etc of a captured planet, it isn't even necessary to terraform a planet to the conquerors' race conditions. They could the original inhabitants let do their work, collect the taxes etc.
As long as the new owner controls the planet and the orbit, they just need a relativly minor amount of prople to manage the planet. These could easily be quatered in environment controlled housings.

In Moo, you also had the choice to bombard the planet until nothing's left and colonize it on your own (where the rules for a new colony would apply) or you assimilated the inhabitants into your own empire, living as usual only under a new gouvernment.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:19 am 
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Sorry for the delay, I was somewhat offline.

Building sealed megacities isn't terraforming. But it solves the same problem.
Also it is a greedy alghorithm of sorts.
There is no sense in making an optimal long-term decision if your civilization may be wiped on the next turn.

I doubt we should apply real population dynamics.
However:
1) population will be spread out only on home planet. On a colony it would naturally be concentrated around starports.
2) on Earth people strive to urbanize. Even world-wide there's more urban population than rural today.

I think it is reasonable to take for granted that even on its home planet a race as a whole prefers to live in a controlled environment.
As an alien planet is likely to be as hospitable as South Pole/Sahara in the best case (breathable atmosphere, tolerable radiation, etc), any race would prefer to live in a megacity.
There won't be any significant un-domed settlements.

So, a sophisticated volcano-city on a superearth will likely be doomed in human hands.
Whether you call it a genocide or an indifference, it solves the terraforming problem easily.
No changes to the planet itself, no additional textures, no magic technologies capable of making a planet habitable in terms of years.

Just your own capability of running an alien megacity matters.


In MOO Medium Terran was 12 population for all races.
Why would Silicoids prefer Gaia to some irradiated wasteland is still a mystery for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:18 am 
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I am not a fan of just colonizing every planet in the game and turning them into samey clone worlds.It is not needed with this many planets in the game and would add a shitload of micromanagement to the game which is an issue as it stands now.

The game already has a dig option and a listening post which would be the only cost effective way of using bad climate planets in my view.


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 Post subject: Re: Occupation and Terraforming
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:34 am 
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Ashbery76 wrote:
I am not a fan of just colonizing every planet in the game and turning them into samey clone worlds.


Yes but with the way Terraforming now works you don't get any food production on most worlds now, unless you terraform it. I think the devs are planning to add some food production back in which will then make some worlds available again.


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