I love 4X space games. As most people, I love Masters of Orion I, II, and III was meh. Loved the real MOO III, Star Trek Birth of the Federation. Galatic Civilzation was ok, but didn't play it much. Just didn't keep my interest. It was excited to see a new game in Horizons and Star Lords. Sad thing is, I read a few bad reviews for both games. I also read a few good things about these games. I have been burnt before so I am doing my research before I buy.
I love the spy game.
I love the building colonies.
I love building and making my ships.
I love a good unique research tree.
From what I read, I can do this with Horizons and SL. Last year I bought Endless Space. At first I thought it was great. Then I hated the combat in it. Never played it since sadly. So I don't want anything like ES.
I have played a lot of Star Ruler. I don't care much for RTS games, but I could pause it. I also have a lot of respect for the developers of the game. They admitted to why they released a poor game and APOLOGIZED for it and fixed it up a lot. After I saw this, I bought the game and supported them. Takes a lot to man up. Really glad I supported them.
Thing is, I want a TBS game now. Tired of trying RTS games, want a REAL TBS game.
So my question is, why should I get this game? As I said before, I would like to have some good spying aspects to the game. Is that in here? I know I can make my own ships. How is the combat of the game? This is important to me. I just played MOO a few weeks ago, and it caught me up in the game for weeks on end even though it was so simplified. How is it for Horizon? I couldn't really find any combat in Youtube. Maybe my youtube foo is not good, so that is why I am asking.
How is the community here? Do we get support from the developers? Do they take our ideas into consideration? I know they have their own vision, but I know one time, I made a comment about something in a game, and the developers have implemented it into the game, which I thought was so cool. Is this game still being supported and updated? One thing that is so disappointing was MOO III. I don't want to see that happen again.
Thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy questions, and hopefully you can answer them.
Davor
Why should I get this game.
Re: Why should I get this game.
Hi! I was thinking of making a post like yours couple of weeks ago, before I decided to buy the game, so I feel somewhat compelled to try and answer at least some of your questions. 
It's still very rough around the edges, but the devs have been doing a reasonable job patching the game at least so far, and they would appear to be interested in making further improvements. With proper love and nurture, Horizon could hatch into something great.
But even if you don't feel like betting on the future, I think Horizon is still a decent game as it is and to me more enjoyable than StarDrive or Endless Space ever were. I feel like I got my money's worth, but with the current pricing I wouldn't blame anyone for waiting for a steam sale.
Unfortunately all combat takes place in the entire system or sector map, which are absolutely massive. This is a huge problem because you can easily end up in a situation where you're spending half a day just just getting in range of your target, which is really annoying and I really hope they do something to improve on that.
Developers are posting though which is always a good sign, and they seem to be interested in what people have to say, which is also encouraging. So take what you will from that.
You should get it if you absolutely love sci-fi 4X games, you're seriously disappointed with the recent alternatives, and want to support a small indie developer. Horizon rides a lot on MOO2 nostalgia, which is not a bad thing at all.So my question is, why should I get this game?
It's still very rough around the edges, but the devs have been doing a reasonable job patching the game at least so far, and they would appear to be interested in making further improvements. With proper love and nurture, Horizon could hatch into something great.
But even if you don't feel like betting on the future, I think Horizon is still a decent game as it is and to me more enjoyable than StarDrive or Endless Space ever were. I feel like I got my money's worth, but with the current pricing I wouldn't blame anyone for waiting for a steam sale.
Sadly there's no espionage in this game at all, as far as I can tell.As I said before, I would like to have some good spying aspects to the game. Is that in here?
Combat is clearly MOO2 inspired. Similar movement, scanning, boarding, targeting enemies with specific weapons, strong starbases etc. This is a Good Thing (tm) for most part. Just mind that weapons and subsystems are not quite as diverse and interesting though, and could do with some work.How is the combat of the game? This is important to me.
Unfortunately all combat takes place in the entire system or sector map, which are absolutely massive. This is a huge problem because you can easily end up in a situation where you're spending half a day just just getting in range of your target, which is really annoying and I really hope they do something to improve on that.
As I'm both new and mainly a lurker, I can't really speak for the state of the community, but it's pretty quiet over here.How is the community here? Do we get support from the developers? Do they take our ideas into consideration?
Developers are posting though which is always a good sign, and they seem to be interested in what people have to say, which is also encouraging. So take what you will from that.
There has been a steady stream of patches coming out since the release, and last one was on Wednesday, so I dare say yes.Is this game still being supported and updated?
Re: Why should I get this game.
How is the community here? Do we get support from the developers? Do they take our ideas into consideration?
There is also Steam-forum for Horizon, and (IMO of course) it's more active than this one. Also developers are active over there. Check that forum also.As I'm both new and mainly a lurker, I can't really speak for the state of the community, but it's pretty quiet over here.
Developers are posting though which is always a good sign, and they seem to be interested in what people have to say, which is also encouraging. So take what you will from that.
You have to have a vision before you can define your strategy
Re: Why should I get this game.
Thanks guys, I am leading toward this game. I have checked the Steam forums as well. I just like having the official forums as well, especially if I am going to get the game. 
Just over spent yesterday, so will have to wait 2 weeks till next payday to get it.
Having no espionage is not a deal breaker. Would be nice to have, but I guess that is what expansions are for, right?
Is there a wiki site or something that explains the tech and what not so I can learn stuff from the game?
Just over spent yesterday, so will have to wait 2 weeks till next payday to get it.
Having no espionage is not a deal breaker. Would be nice to have, but I guess that is what expansions are for, right?
Is there a wiki site or something that explains the tech and what not so I can learn stuff from the game?
Re: Why should I get this game.
Here you go Davor.Davor wrote:
Is there a wiki site or something that explains the tech and what not so I can learn stuff from the game?
Horizon Wiki
Re: Why should I get this game.
I cannot recommend you buy this game.
Combat: Extremely simplistic. Every weapon is the same with only insignificant differences. It's neat to build ships with weapon placement making a difference, but it is really lacking. The "movement" grid is annoying as you can't move to the edge unless your ship is a scout that takes up 1 "spot" on the grid. Larger ships have a footprint that is not shown on the attempted move. Just not a very good interface for combat.
Diplomacy: I don't even know where to start. The only race you can't make completely in love with you without breaking a sweat are the ones that are "Repulsive". Worse is that none of the options actually tell you what the heck they do. There is no mouseover, no description, and no statistics of what benefit you will actually get from it. I still have not been able to find out what my trade routes are actually doing for me. I presume it's adding income, but there's no indication of how much. There is no tech "Trading" in the normal sense other than giving a free tech to them and demanding one in return. Or just plain demand from them. It seems fully random whether they will give you the tech or not. I do not see any racial preferences like one race refusing to give any weapon techs, or bio, or anything.
Colony management: Really simplistic. You don't need technology to upgrade your colonies, just time and income. Technology gives flat bonuses to all worlds. The only real difference between a toxic planet and terran is just how long it takes for "Terraforming" to turn it into terran (Or your race equivalent.)
Race creation: The "Cost" of items is abhorrently silly. There is really no balancing at all. You get about 250-300 points (Don't recall exactly) if you "Zero out" a race. You can put every "Stat" to "Good" with a measly 10 points. Gaining about 25% bonus to each (Farming, research etc.) Really, this is just silly unbalanced.
Technology Tree: I like the fact that no matter how focused you are in researching something you will always have some research in all the other trees. More realistic in how research functions in the real world.). I like the ability to focus on a branch or even a single tech. The sadness is that there's really no reason to care about many of the techs. All of the weapons are so similar that the differences don't make much difference. Power consumption seems like an afterthought and I have never had it be an issue.
UI: Traveling is just tedious. Especially if you happen to have to engage in a sector. If you don't manually move your scout ship to the left side of the screen (Because you are heading that way to explore) while your combat ships deal with that one Tantrik scout to the south, then the scout ship will end up taking an additional turn moving as it's "Turn" will have been spent sitting there. There should be an option instead of "Done" that is "Just go where I ordered you before this engage sector nonsense." Also needing to orbit planets with starbases to refit colony ships just seems like busy work. Colony ship just used in a system? Great. Now send it back to a system with a base, then orbit the planet with the base, then you will be refit. Can't just command it "Go get refit".
Final thoughts: I simply cannot suggest to purchase the game. It feels like an unfinished, and unrefined product. It is missing a lot of stuff that is a staple of this type of game. Spying for example does not exist at all. (Unless that is what "Information trade does" because I can't tell what they does at all.) It's actually somewhat amusing that the wiki for the game doesn't describe anything more than the "Manual" or the game itself does. There's just simply zero information on a lot of things.
Combat: Extremely simplistic. Every weapon is the same with only insignificant differences. It's neat to build ships with weapon placement making a difference, but it is really lacking. The "movement" grid is annoying as you can't move to the edge unless your ship is a scout that takes up 1 "spot" on the grid. Larger ships have a footprint that is not shown on the attempted move. Just not a very good interface for combat.
Diplomacy: I don't even know where to start. The only race you can't make completely in love with you without breaking a sweat are the ones that are "Repulsive". Worse is that none of the options actually tell you what the heck they do. There is no mouseover, no description, and no statistics of what benefit you will actually get from it. I still have not been able to find out what my trade routes are actually doing for me. I presume it's adding income, but there's no indication of how much. There is no tech "Trading" in the normal sense other than giving a free tech to them and demanding one in return. Or just plain demand from them. It seems fully random whether they will give you the tech or not. I do not see any racial preferences like one race refusing to give any weapon techs, or bio, or anything.
Colony management: Really simplistic. You don't need technology to upgrade your colonies, just time and income. Technology gives flat bonuses to all worlds. The only real difference between a toxic planet and terran is just how long it takes for "Terraforming" to turn it into terran (Or your race equivalent.)
Race creation: The "Cost" of items is abhorrently silly. There is really no balancing at all. You get about 250-300 points (Don't recall exactly) if you "Zero out" a race. You can put every "Stat" to "Good" with a measly 10 points. Gaining about 25% bonus to each (Farming, research etc.) Really, this is just silly unbalanced.
Technology Tree: I like the fact that no matter how focused you are in researching something you will always have some research in all the other trees. More realistic in how research functions in the real world.). I like the ability to focus on a branch or even a single tech. The sadness is that there's really no reason to care about many of the techs. All of the weapons are so similar that the differences don't make much difference. Power consumption seems like an afterthought and I have never had it be an issue.
UI: Traveling is just tedious. Especially if you happen to have to engage in a sector. If you don't manually move your scout ship to the left side of the screen (Because you are heading that way to explore) while your combat ships deal with that one Tantrik scout to the south, then the scout ship will end up taking an additional turn moving as it's "Turn" will have been spent sitting there. There should be an option instead of "Done" that is "Just go where I ordered you before this engage sector nonsense." Also needing to orbit planets with starbases to refit colony ships just seems like busy work. Colony ship just used in a system? Great. Now send it back to a system with a base, then orbit the planet with the base, then you will be refit. Can't just command it "Go get refit".
Final thoughts: I simply cannot suggest to purchase the game. It feels like an unfinished, and unrefined product. It is missing a lot of stuff that is a staple of this type of game. Spying for example does not exist at all. (Unless that is what "Information trade does" because I can't tell what they does at all.) It's actually somewhat amusing that the wiki for the game doesn't describe anything more than the "Manual" or the game itself does. There's just simply zero information on a lot of things.
Re: Why should I get this game.
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Thank you for your feedback Kumu. Some points I’d like to address:
Re: Weapons
Each weapon is quite unique with special properties but you need to research it to level 5 to unlock it’s power. Where most 4x games you get Laser 1, Laser 2, Laser 3, we have tried a more realistic approach where you refine it and keep improving it, making it better. Also one of the things for example in MOO was that most weapons would be discarded as soon as you got the next one that did more damage. We’ve tried to avoid this by making each weapon usable if you develop it. Neither system is perfect but we’re not afraid to take some risks to find better ways to do things even though sometimes you will tell us if it doesn’t meet your expectations and we will look for ways to improve it.
Re: Combat: The movement grid – can’t move to the edge..
This shouldn’t be happening any more. This bug was introduced when we added zooming out to tactical mode but was fixed a few patches ago.
Re: Diplomacy
Good points, tooltips would be nice here to explain the different deals. And while some players find the AI too hard to make friends, I’m also of the same opinion that in fact it’s too easy and we are looking to improve this aspect and make relations changes take more time and effort to achieve. Very few things are random, there is quite a system behind Diplomacy and other aspects of Horizon but granted a lot of it is not presented as well as they could be to make it easier to understand and appreciate.
Re: Colony management
Colony management looks simple which was our goal, but behind it there is a fairly complex economy system that’s built more on realism (of course somewhat abstracted). We have tried a new approach, instead of copying existing systems. The system does need better money balancing to force decision-making and this will be addressed in the economy update to come in a few weeks. The decision not to tie buildings to technology was done on purpose but there are buildings to unlock through other means. We are trying to find new ways of doing things and not just re-package the same old systems but it takes time to refine them or sometimes take a step back before moving forward again to make it better.
Re: Race creation
Race customization was designed for the purpose to make interesting and different type of races. While we do put in some limits and we may revisit, this is purely for players to have fun trying different combinations.
Re: Technology Tree
Definitely there are some techs that are better than others and some that don’t reward you enough. We will keep looking to make each more desirable.
RE: Also needing to orbit planets with starbases to refit colony ships just seems like busy work.
You don’t need to orbit it manually. As long as there is a starbase or shipyard in a system, ships will automatically dock for repairs/refits/upgrades. You can give the order but it’s not required, just need to have them in the system. If you prefer the old system, there is also the game option that scraps your colonizer.
RE: The wiki
The wiki is there for the community to edit and contribute to help each other. Most of our resources are put toward development so we don’t get as much chance to add to it ourselves, preferring to put our time answering questions/feedback on forums.
The goal with the design of Horizon was to introduce many new ways of doing things, basing it on realism when possible and hopefully find more immersive game mechanics. We took some risks doing this knowing it wouldn't be easy and also knowing that we might not always get it right the first time or even the second and third but in the end we hope to have one of the better systems in all aspects. And we hope you will appreciate our efforts either now or in the future
-Raf
Thank you for your feedback Kumu. Some points I’d like to address:
Re: Weapons
Each weapon is quite unique with special properties but you need to research it to level 5 to unlock it’s power. Where most 4x games you get Laser 1, Laser 2, Laser 3, we have tried a more realistic approach where you refine it and keep improving it, making it better. Also one of the things for example in MOO was that most weapons would be discarded as soon as you got the next one that did more damage. We’ve tried to avoid this by making each weapon usable if you develop it. Neither system is perfect but we’re not afraid to take some risks to find better ways to do things even though sometimes you will tell us if it doesn’t meet your expectations and we will look for ways to improve it.
Re: Combat: The movement grid – can’t move to the edge..
This shouldn’t be happening any more. This bug was introduced when we added zooming out to tactical mode but was fixed a few patches ago.
Re: Diplomacy
Good points, tooltips would be nice here to explain the different deals. And while some players find the AI too hard to make friends, I’m also of the same opinion that in fact it’s too easy and we are looking to improve this aspect and make relations changes take more time and effort to achieve. Very few things are random, there is quite a system behind Diplomacy and other aspects of Horizon but granted a lot of it is not presented as well as they could be to make it easier to understand and appreciate.
Re: Colony management
Colony management looks simple which was our goal, but behind it there is a fairly complex economy system that’s built more on realism (of course somewhat abstracted). We have tried a new approach, instead of copying existing systems. The system does need better money balancing to force decision-making and this will be addressed in the economy update to come in a few weeks. The decision not to tie buildings to technology was done on purpose but there are buildings to unlock through other means. We are trying to find new ways of doing things and not just re-package the same old systems but it takes time to refine them or sometimes take a step back before moving forward again to make it better.
Re: Race creation
Race customization was designed for the purpose to make interesting and different type of races. While we do put in some limits and we may revisit, this is purely for players to have fun trying different combinations.
Re: Technology Tree
Definitely there are some techs that are better than others and some that don’t reward you enough. We will keep looking to make each more desirable.
RE: Also needing to orbit planets with starbases to refit colony ships just seems like busy work.
You don’t need to orbit it manually. As long as there is a starbase or shipyard in a system, ships will automatically dock for repairs/refits/upgrades. You can give the order but it’s not required, just need to have them in the system. If you prefer the old system, there is also the game option that scraps your colonizer.
RE: The wiki
The wiki is there for the community to edit and contribute to help each other. Most of our resources are put toward development so we don’t get as much chance to add to it ourselves, preferring to put our time answering questions/feedback on forums.
The goal with the design of Horizon was to introduce many new ways of doing things, basing it on realism when possible and hopefully find more immersive game mechanics. We took some risks doing this knowing it wouldn't be easy and also knowing that we might not always get it right the first time or even the second and third but in the end we hope to have one of the better systems in all aspects. And we hope you will appreciate our efforts either now or in the future
-Raf
Horizon - Lead Designer | a.k.a. Raf
Re: Why should I get this game.
I want to take a moment and thank you for responding to my feedback.
Weapons: Maybe it is just me, but I never noticed any difference between the weapons in all practicality. They are just too similar. All of the types do the same thing until you level the tech up quite a ways. Maybe I am just used to games that use more options. Projectile weapons, laser weapons, beam weapons, missiles, torpedoes. There's many ways to make them interesting and provide a wider tech tree while doing so. Defenses for each type requiring a bit of knowledge of what your enemies are researching for example.
Combat: I haven't patched recently as I don't get much time online to do so. So if this little annoyance is fixed, that is a good thing. You didn't comment on the fact that if you have combat in a system where a scout is simply traveling through, the scout (If you don't move it manually in that direction) actually loses a turn of movement while all your combat ships deal with an enemy. Rather annoying for me.
Diplomacy: I don't see how it's possible to have difficulty. I didn't do ANYTHING with my closest neighbors (Aggresive Technologists) and they absolutely love me and want my babies. Tooltips should be a priority as most of the choices in diplomacy have ZERO indication of what benefit they actually have. Worse is that the manual and wiki also have zero information on the choices. Something that I ran into quite a lot with this game. There's no information to base your decision of allowing trade or not. Or what the heck an information trade actually does. (I did not get map information or anything that I could physically tell happened).
Colony Management: It didn't seem complex at all. Simply increase production to large value, Trade to Large Value, and microfocus farming when you have natives, and entertainment when you have vistas and such. Throwing research everywhere you have room. There's no buildings or tech that can be placed on planets. Only flat empire wide bonuses that affect every planet equally. It's rather bland as you make almost the same decision on every last planet in your empire.
Race Creation: It certainly did seem like a last minute addition because you can obtain nearly every single bonus without needing to take any negatives. Especially things like Immortal, and increasing all the "Farming/Trade/Industry/Science/Combat/Kitchen sink" to good. You need to take a good long look at balancing the values for these. There's a reason that games put high costs to things like "+Research". They are worth quite a bit when you have the advantage. If you have to take a penalty to your industry to be a research powerhouse it makes that choice a conscious choice instead of "DUH..."
Orbit to refit: I did not notice that. The tooltip (IT ACTUALLY HAS ONE!!!) says to orbit the planet so I was doing that manually as the ship entered the system. Did not know that it would do that on it's own. Again, information issue.
The wiki: It's hard for your player base to add information if the information simply does not exist. There's no information in the game or manual that can allow the players to actually put some information on the wiki. I can not for example provide information to others on the wiki on what exactly an "Information trade"(Treaty? I forget) actually does. I suppose I could update it to say that it does NOT give you map information of the race you traded with...
I can understand not wanting to be a clone, but there simply are a lot of things that lack polish or are pretty clunky. I wish you luck in your attempt to fix it, but I still cannot change my recommendation of "Don't buy". At least for now.
Weapons: Maybe it is just me, but I never noticed any difference between the weapons in all practicality. They are just too similar. All of the types do the same thing until you level the tech up quite a ways. Maybe I am just used to games that use more options. Projectile weapons, laser weapons, beam weapons, missiles, torpedoes. There's many ways to make them interesting and provide a wider tech tree while doing so. Defenses for each type requiring a bit of knowledge of what your enemies are researching for example.
Combat: I haven't patched recently as I don't get much time online to do so. So if this little annoyance is fixed, that is a good thing. You didn't comment on the fact that if you have combat in a system where a scout is simply traveling through, the scout (If you don't move it manually in that direction) actually loses a turn of movement while all your combat ships deal with an enemy. Rather annoying for me.
Diplomacy: I don't see how it's possible to have difficulty. I didn't do ANYTHING with my closest neighbors (Aggresive Technologists) and they absolutely love me and want my babies. Tooltips should be a priority as most of the choices in diplomacy have ZERO indication of what benefit they actually have. Worse is that the manual and wiki also have zero information on the choices. Something that I ran into quite a lot with this game. There's no information to base your decision of allowing trade or not. Or what the heck an information trade actually does. (I did not get map information or anything that I could physically tell happened).
Colony Management: It didn't seem complex at all. Simply increase production to large value, Trade to Large Value, and microfocus farming when you have natives, and entertainment when you have vistas and such. Throwing research everywhere you have room. There's no buildings or tech that can be placed on planets. Only flat empire wide bonuses that affect every planet equally. It's rather bland as you make almost the same decision on every last planet in your empire.
Race Creation: It certainly did seem like a last minute addition because you can obtain nearly every single bonus without needing to take any negatives. Especially things like Immortal, and increasing all the "Farming/Trade/Industry/Science/Combat/Kitchen sink" to good. You need to take a good long look at balancing the values for these. There's a reason that games put high costs to things like "+Research". They are worth quite a bit when you have the advantage. If you have to take a penalty to your industry to be a research powerhouse it makes that choice a conscious choice instead of "DUH..."
Orbit to refit: I did not notice that. The tooltip (IT ACTUALLY HAS ONE!!!) says to orbit the planet so I was doing that manually as the ship entered the system. Did not know that it would do that on it's own. Again, information issue.
The wiki: It's hard for your player base to add information if the information simply does not exist. There's no information in the game or manual that can allow the players to actually put some information on the wiki. I can not for example provide information to others on the wiki on what exactly an "Information trade"(Treaty? I forget) actually does. I suppose I could update it to say that it does NOT give you map information of the race you traded with...
I can understand not wanting to be a clone, but there simply are a lot of things that lack polish or are pretty clunky. I wish you luck in your attempt to fix it, but I still cannot change my recommendation of "Don't buy". At least for now.
Re: Why should I get this game.
I am amazed how anybody who knows the game and plays humans could possibly have a problem with diplomacy.It's so easy to be loved.How about opening factors for modding?
I am glad the game will be getting continued support.It would be nice to have some ideas about future plans.Ground combat,economy,trade and colony building all need more depth in my view.
I am glad the game will be getting continued support.It would be nice to have some ideas about future plans.Ground combat,economy,trade and colony building all need more depth in my view.
Re: Why should I get this game.
Well, it has gotten a huge update that improves a lot of things so if you are still listening, you may want to buy it now. It is even on sale.
Re: Why should I get this game.
Finally bought the game. Just my luck, got laid off, so couldn't get the game when I wanted. Going to install soon and hopeful have lots of fun with this game.
One question. Is it still in beta or an actual release now?
One question. Is it still in beta or an actual release now?
Re: Why should I get this game.
Hi Davor, sorry to hear about your bad luck but thank you for purchasing! The game is fully released now (though we continue to support it with regular updates) and we hope you will enjoy it also!
Horizon - Lead Designer | a.k.a. Raf
Re: Why should I get this game.
@Zaimat. You guys are from Canada? For some reason I thought this was a European game. Where from Canada are you guys located?
*edit* Ah, I just saw About US. Wow, you guys are an hour away from me. I should come down and visit.
*edit* Ah, I just saw About US. Wow, you guys are an hour away from me. I should come down and visit.
Re: Why should I get this game.
Very much Canadian. We are in located in North York, part of the Greater Toronto Area. You are welcome to visit our humble studio if in the area
Horizon - Lead Designer | a.k.a. Raf
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ysatiy2008
- Voyager
- Posts: 1
Re: Why should I get this game.
Last update, the AI is too strong so there is just no way to play. I begin the game playing on the large map, but the rivals attack immediately after 1-2 colonies for development not giving me any time. Don't like the game balance. I REGRET buying the game and won't buy another from your company..
{MODERATOR EDITED: For legibility and removed profanities}
{MODERATOR EDITED: For legibility and removed profanities}
Re: Why should I get this game.
The story mode with the humans is unbalanced by itself...it's an adventure. If you want to have a more balanced game, choose the "Classic" mode on easy.ysatiy2008 wrote:Last update, the AI is too strong so there is just no way to play. I begin the game playing on the large map, but the rivals attack immediately after 1-2 colonies for development not giving me any time. Don't like the game balance. I REGRET buying the game and won't buy another from your company..
{MODERATOR EDITED: For legibility and removed profanities}